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Old 08-23-2007, 09:31 PM   #136
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Originally posted by Liesje


I'm not against rehab, but like Angela Harlem says, the torture of animals is only one symptom of a deeper problem. I wouldn't support having child kidnappers do mandatory recess duty at local schools or arsonists on the fire squads. Maybe he needs some kind of psychiatric evaluation and therapy, but I know first hand that the best animal shelters function well because everyone wants to be there.
Actually, you make perfect sense. I guess I just have this image in my mind of Vick breaking down at some point, profoundly regretting his wrongdoings, and then telling people how wrong he was. I can't fathom how a seemingly rational-thinking individual would be at peace with harming dogs so badly. There must a missing link there in his psychology, and I'd be interested in having that addressed in the media.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:59 PM   #137
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They're actually quite remarkable when you get to know them.

In my experience, besides German Shepherds and Border Collies, pits have been the easiest dogs for me to train! I LOVE working with our pittie puppies b/c they respond instantly to R+. It's harder to keep them focused and calm than say a German Shepherd, but they do take delight in training. On the other hand, the all American labrador retrievers have given me the worst frustrations!!!
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:02 PM   #138
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^ Sounds about right. I've had experience with all those breeds. Pits are incredibly smart, but strong-willed as well, so training can certainly be a challenge, but well worth the payoff

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Kaf's pit bull, Evie is a sweetie! Almost too affectionate at times, she could slobber you do death!!
You still have her heart
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:07 PM   #139
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I wonder if Vick were involved with cockfighting, rather than dogfighting, how much less society as a whole would care. While dogfighting and the way fighting dogs are treated in general is despicable, and I have no sympathy for Vick, I think people's "gut reaction" to animal cruelty based on the type/breed/species on animal is pretty hypocritical.
It's an interesting point, although extending the biological category 'animal' (inevitably minus us, of course) into the legal and moral domain, as if it were an adequate catchall for reasoning about our proper relationship to everything from gorillas to cats to cockroaches, is itself arguably not as self-evidently logical as it might seem. At any rate, cockfighting is illegal in all 50 states and DC, and it also is covered by the Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act Vick et al. are being charged under, and is subject to the same penalties. Obviously that doesn't mean the average American's "gut reaction" to people charged with cockfighting would be the same--roosters aren't generally perceived as lovable personal companions whereas dogs (nowadays, anyhow) generally are. Plus dogfighting has been illegal for much longer in most states than cockfighting has, and has a stronger 'criminal underworld/sleazy' stigma (as opposed to a 'redneck/hillbilly' stigma, I guess) attached to it. As is the case in many other countries.

I might be more inclined to acknowledge the possibility of some kind of morally (not legally) mitigating 'sociocultural factors' *perhaps* being involved here were it not for Vick et al.'s firsthand involvement in behavior like killing 'underperforming' dogs by hanging, drowning and bludgeoning them. I can't swallow the idea that that's how someone who sincerely sees these dogs as 'sporty' born killing machines acts.
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:50 PM   #140
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Originally posted by yolland

roosters aren't generally perceived as lovable personal companions
Boy, it's a good thing Little Mitch and Rusty haven't learned to read the computer screen yet.

I've seen pictures of cockfighting on the news...it's equally disturbing. You're right about our sensitivity to dogs, however. They've become such a part of our lives, and I'm certainly a part of that. It's undeniably true that certain animals are given more love and affection, while others are utilized primarily for sustenance. The overarching point, however, is that no animal (in any role we've given them) should be mocked and eliminated so needlessly.
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:52 PM   #141
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I might be more inclined to acknowledge the possibility of some kind of morally (not legally) mitigating 'sociocultural factors' *perhaps* being involved here were it not for Vick et al.'s firsthand involvement in behavior like killing 'underperforming' dogs by hanging, drowning and bludgeoning them. I can't swallow the idea that that's how someone who sincerely sees these dogs as 'sporty' born killing machines acts.
Well, you've acknowledged the possibility a lot longer than I did!


My problem with the argument that dog fighting is "just sport" is that that's simply NOT true! Why do people dog fight? Because they make thousands of dollars betting or owning the winning pits! You don't make money doing dog sports like lure coursing, agility, rally-O, French ringsport...in fact you spend a LOT of it. We do these dog sports because they are fun for us and the dog and they showcase the various tasks a given breed was designed to perform. Pit bulls were intended for bull baiting and family companionship. Being a bully breed, they have the magnificently immense neck/shoulders/chest, plus the will of a bull itself. The dog sport appropriate for Staffordshire Terriers and their varieties is weight pull, not pit fighting. Last dog show I went to we met a woman waiting in line to get her Staffy Bull's pic taken because he had pulled 15 times his bodyweight. He was getting lots of treats and lovins from everyone. THAT is how we appreciate and treat sporting dogs. With any other breed, if the sport becomes too dangerous, people rethink the sport and the breed. For example, recently there were several instances of some Malinois coming off of Schutzhund trials with broken legs and shoulders b/c the decoy was hitting them so hard. There was a huge outcry against the decoy, but a lot of people are re-thinking the selection of drive in the Malinois breed because they are so drive-y they are hitting too hard, their bite work is out of this world, and the decoys HAVE to break their bones to finish the exercise. Anyone who truly loves and appreciates dogs and their sportiness is also overly critical of situations where a dog might get hurt. Not only allowing, but encouraging dogs to maime other dogs is unfathomable.
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Old 08-24-2007, 07:25 AM   #142
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
They're banned over here and it's illegal to own an American Pitbull, due to combined poor breeding which has seen too many enter the country with behavioural problems, and owners not being equipped to handle such a breed sufficiently.
When I was in Australia I was scared by how aggressive all the dogs have been.
Really, almost every dog would bark, growl, jump at the fence and so on.

Having the job of a door knocker, I didn't enter any garden if there was a dog or dog sign. It wasn't worth it.

I was once in a house that had two dobermen. When I was inside it was friendly dogs, calm and nice.
Later, when I walked by the backgarden one of the dogs came to the fence, barking and making very clear that I should stay on my side of the fence.

I really don't know why these dogs were so aggressive, even if you kept away from the yard.
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Old 08-24-2007, 08:38 AM   #143
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According to ESPN Radio, Vick will plea on Monday that he was present when the dogs were killed but didn't participate in the killing and didn't gamble on the fighting itself.

This seems to contradict the testimony of the three other defendants. So, it will be interesting to see how this will all play out.
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Old 08-24-2007, 08:50 AM   #144
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both he and his lawyer are fools. everyone's gonna see right through this.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:02 AM   #145
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According to ESPN Radio, Vick will plea on Monday that he was present when the dogs were killed but didn't participate in the killing and didn't gamble on the fighting itself.

So what? Neglect is neglect. It's HIS kennel, HIS property, and HE was there. I just watched a clip last night of a woman whose dog was infested with thousands of ticks. The dog survived and got a new home; the woman was punished. It doesn't matter that she wasn't killing the dog with her own hands.

He should just keep his mouth shut from now on. Every time they try to make excuses, he becomes more of a joke.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:28 AM   #146
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I just watched a clip last night of a woman whose dog was infested with thousands of ticks. The dog survived and got a new home; the woman was punished.
The conditions some of those dogs are in on the Animal Cops/Animal Precinct type shows are just disgusting. Between starvation, embedded chains, untreated injuries, ticks...just horrible.

I think the "I was there but didn't kill any dogs" thing is just a PR stunt. If Vick maintains that he never physically hurt a dog his supporters will have that to hold on to, and they'll be able to say "it's all he say she say from guys trying to save themselves some jail time". Of course nobody will buy it, and even if they did Vick is/was the boss so if he was there then the drownings/hangings whatever were his call.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:30 AM   #147
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I think the "I was there but didn't kill any dogs" thing is just a PR stunt. If Vick maintains that he never physically hurt a dog his supporters will have that to hold on to, and they'll be able to say "it's all he say she say from guys trying to save themselves some jail time". Of course nobody will buy it, and even if they did Vick is/was the boss so if he was there then the drownings/hangings whatever were his call.
I'm sure it is a PR stunt, but no one's that stupid! IMO, it's not ANY better to own a kennel of 50 dogs on your property and KNOW that these things are going on, but not do anything about it and then try to convince people you've been victimized. Either way, he's an ass, but now he's more of an ass for being such a pansy about it.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #148
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That's the nature of some athletes though, they get too used to preferential and deferential treatment.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:56 AM   #149
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i'm tired of the vick brothers avoiding responsibility for their actions. i mean, i know other athletes get away with loads of stuff...these two get on nerves bc i've seen them get away with crap since college.
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:10 AM   #150
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Originally posted by Liesje


I'm sure it is a PR stunt, but no one's that stupid! IMO, it's not ANY better to own a kennel of 50 dogs on your property and KNOW that these things are going on, but not do anything about it and then try to convince people you've been victimized. Either way, he's an ass, but now he's more of an ass for being such a pansy about it.
" I didn't inhale" has a lot to answer for...............
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