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Old 09-16-2001, 10:08 PM   #1
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Does Violence Solve Anything?

It's a question I'd surely like to pose. But think about it...

1) World War I was supposed to be the "war to end all wars." It very well could have been, but the victors insisted on punishing Germany with the Treaty of Versailles (U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was opposed to this vengeance, and the Republican-controlled Congress rejected the treaty anyway, so you can't blame the U.S. for this one!). Imperialist Russia falls in the aftermath, leaving it prey to the Russian Revolution and the rise of Communism. As a result, with hyperinflation and humiliation during the ill-fated Weimar Republic, Adolf Hitler was able to rise...

2)...which led to World War II. Undoubtedly, this was a justified war, as all attempts for peace were tried before it turned into a war. However, with the end of this war, it led to a resumption of animosity between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, which refused to give back the territory it "liberated" from Nazi occupation...

3)...which leads to the Cold War, with the first test being the Korean War. With the Truman Doctrine of Containment, it was established that the U.S. would get involved in any case where communism tried to expand, and, boy, did that lead to a lot of wars! This conflict is still not technically over, with a nearly 50 year armistice...

4)...which leads into the Vietnam War, which officially started in 1957. This war probably made the least sense, especially since we were trying to keep a South Vietnamese dictator in power that was likely to lose a national reunification election to Ho Chi Minh. Hence, even the people they were supposed to protect hated the U.S. involvement, and was just a long prolonging of the inevitable, as the U.S. pulls out of Vietnam in 1973 and South Vietnam falls in 1975, reunifying by force, rather than election...

5) ...which leads to then Gov. Ronald Reagan, who, perhaps as a result, calls for militarism against the Soviets. He doesn't go this far as President, but, perhaps more than any other president, he follows Truman's Policy of Containment very closely, getting involved in everything from toppling Grenada to Guatemala to El Salvador to Nicaragua's "leftist" governments, and also funding militants to expel the Soviets from Afghanistan, which did include Osama bin Laden. Reagan also gets involved in arming and funding Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War, while also, arguably, arming Iran at the same time. He also establishes a series of civilian "militias," which are established to protect the U.S. in case the National Guard is exhausted in a prolonged nuclear attack...

6) ...which leads to President Bush, Sr. with the Gulf War. In the process, bin Laden is angered at what he sees as "desecration" of sacred Islamic sites, and vows to spend his energy and money destroying the U.S. In the meantime, Saddam Hussein, dictator of Iraq, is still in power, despite losing the war...

7) ...which leads to President Clinton having to take care of the mess, and being the president forced to take care of bin Laden's emerging terrorism, bombing both Sudan and Afghanistan after bin Laden's syndicate bombs the World Trade Center in 1993 and U.S. embassies in Africa a few years later. All in the meantime, a Gulf War / Waco scarred, Timothy McVeigh, and a militia member, Terry Nichols, blows up a federal building in Oklahoma City to strike against what they see as a "repressive government"...

8) ...which leads to September 11th. Islamic terrorists hijack four commercial jets, destroying the World Trade Center twin towers (finishing off a previous miscalculation by bin Laden, who did try to destroy the towers in 1993) and crashing into the Pentagon, after previously targeting the White House, but realizing that the President is not there. Prime suspects include bin Laden and the Afghani Taliban, with possible connections to Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein...

9) ...which leads to current calls for "revenge" against the terrorists, and my current fears that the cycle of violence will perpetuate itself further, as we are still paying for the wars of the past, and even World War I was the result of previous wars and anger (but for time purposes, I started the trace from WWI). Like every previous war, we, perhaps naively, expected it to be the "war to end all wars," but then learning that it spawns yet another one. It is my sincere hope that the U.S. only takes appropriate steps to secure its defense, without escalating it unnecessarily out of vengeance, which seems very tempting right now, understandably. However, it is our obligation to our future generations that we try and stop the cycle here. Perhaps at no time in history could such a prospect be possible, with recent unity amongst the West and even cooperation amongst moderate Islamic nations. It is my hope that we don't blow it out of revenge. We should strive for "justice," rather than "retribution."

Melon

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[This message has been edited by melon (edited 09-16-2001).]
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Old 09-16-2001, 10:18 PM   #2
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melon,

All very logical points. In this case, however, the only means of achieving true justice, is through retribution. Do you have a better alternative for us? Please enlighten me.


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Old 09-16-2001, 10:26 PM   #3
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Melon,

War is not a 20th century phenomenon. (I'm sure this point was pretty obvious to you too.) The Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, has roots that date back thousands of years.

As long as we have enemies, the sad fact will remain that "the art of war is of vital importance to the state."
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Old 09-16-2001, 10:30 PM   #4
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Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon

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Old 09-16-2001, 10:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon

Very good sir. Will you be submitting this report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
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Old 09-16-2001, 10:43 PM   #6
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I am but a humble liberal artist. The government doesn't listen to it's own people.

Melon

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Old 09-16-2001, 10:50 PM   #7
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The only language a terrorist understands is Aggression.
10 years ago, when a certain Administration took over, the Military started "Down-Sizing." They incorporated sensitivity training so we could have a "Kind-dler and Gentle-tler" military to attract the new generation of soft/slacker youth. All the while, these terrorists were over in the desert eating scorpions and buring the American Flag. WE're spoiled! We're no were near as tough as our parents and Granparents were and had to be.
If we don't respond swiftly and harshly, we are going to start losing pieces of the Freedom Puzzle. What's the Freedom Puzzle?

Being able to express freely, are opinions on this Forum. Walking out of are dwellings with no paranoia, carefree with a sense security. Having the choice to strive for financial, religious, and/or sociological excellence. Etc, etc, etc!

And this is not just a US problem! There were many other countries that suffered loses. Britain lost over 300 countrymen.

This is and is going to be a NATO extermination of terrorism. Right now as we speak CIA, NSA, FBI, French Foreign Legion, British Intelligence, Special Forces, NATO Special Forces, and Etc. are in action. Laying down the foundation and doing the homework so we(US,NATO) can go kick BUTT!

So what am I trying to say?

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion.......................................................................................of course as long as you have the right(or is it a luxury?? ) to express it.

Thank you for your time,
Andrew Alexander, FC2(SW), U.S. Navy

GOD BLESS AMERICA



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Old 09-16-2001, 10:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
The Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, has roots that date back thousands of years.
Actually, the current one dates from 1947, the day Israel was declared a state.

Melon

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Old 09-16-2001, 10:56 PM   #9
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melon,

I agree with your plan in principle. I do not want innocent civilians to die for the actions of their disgusting countrymen. The question that arises, though, involves feasability.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

"All known bin Laden operations". How much do we really know about where this guy keeps his terrorist cells? My guess is not enough. By their nature, they are decentralized and well hidden. I think that ferreting out all of his operations in all nations will be an extremely difficult process. Plus, we must consider the fact that he could have access to nuclear weaponry, which really complicates our strategy.

I agree with you about our satellite usage. We should use every bit of technology we have against them.

Quote:
Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.
Don't you think Afghanistan will fight with everything they have to prevent us from occupying their country. I do not see how we can occupy them without doing some serious damage. They will not say, "sure, come right in". They will fight us to the death. I would love to avoid civilian casualties, but I just do not see the occupation of Afghanistan as a peaceful process. When one country comes into another, and the government is opposed to the idea, things get messy and people die. These are realities we must live with, no matter how inhumane they make us appear.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Hawk269 (edited 09-16-2001).]
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Old 09-16-2001, 11:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Actually, the current one dates from 1947, the day Israel was declared a state.

Melon

Well, the reason Israel plonked down in the land of Palestine, and not at the South Pole or some unoccupied chain of islands in the South Pacific, is because Palestine is the land that they believe God promised them in ancient times, right?
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Old 09-16-2001, 11:18 PM   #11
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That is true, but there was little violence between the few Jews and Christians left in Palestine and the Arabs before 1947. It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920s, and was occupied by the British until 1947. The Jews in Israel today are mostly Europeans, whose original tribes converted in the Dark Ages. Hence why Jews have a "certain look."

Anyway, getting back on track, the anger in Palestine is mostly due to the seizure and lack of payment to Arabs who held the land before 1947 (remember that the Arabs had "owned" that land for nearly 1000 years before Israel came in), the immediate annexation of Jerusalem (which was a U.N. administed, independent city in the original Israel charter), the militaristic expansionism that Israel did (which included Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula at its height), and also the fact that Israel continues to establish Jewish "settlements" in Arab territory.

I do believe that Israel has a right to exist, believe me, and should be defended from terrorism, but a lot happened in the last century to get to the hotbed of violence it is today.

Melon

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Old 09-16-2001, 11:36 PM   #12
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Quote:

NO
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Old 09-16-2001, 11:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon

Your plan is laughable at best. No offense. How could anyone think of imprisonment. You cannot arest this man. He has men around him at all times. If there is a major chance that he will be taken alive they are instructed to shoot him in the head. And IF, and a big If that is, they ever did arrest him his groups would respond in taking and american or NATO countrtmen hostage and demand the release of Bin LAden.

Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison.
Much easier said then done. Immpossible IMHO.

Bin Laden isnt the whole problem. He is a figure head. A 'bank' per say. If he were to be killed there would be ten more 'Bin Ladens' to take his place and ten more after them. The problem is the countries that harbor them. If they have no place to live and hide they cannot operate. If any country has knowledge of any terrorist group that threatens the lively hood of innocent people then they should notify NATO, UN. If not military action should be taken on them, or sanctions. Heavy sanctions.

Your idea of occupying Afgan. is very naive. How could a country be over run by Christains and Jews when the people are for religous run states. They would fight till death. It would complcate everything. It would cause more, much more innocent deaths. This would incite the real Holy Wars. It then becomes life or death to these people.


There needs to be swift and powerful actions. I can say that IMHO that there will be more attacks on America or other countries. If we think WTC is bad wait till we see the chemical bombs. Something will happen and it will be far worse then WTC. If we think for a second that whoever planned this isnt prepared to strike again then we are blind or to naive to see the truth. Going into this attack these terrorists knew the destruction that they were going to cause. If there planned had worked to a tee the WTC's would have fallen on impact and killed 30000 people. And if the planes in DC didnt crash the white house and-or camp david would have been hit. They already have a plan set for the next attack. It's just a matter of time. I pray to God i am wrong.

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Old 09-17-2001, 12:19 AM   #14
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My fear over attacking Afghanistan is that we will share the fate of the Soviet Union--a ten year conflict that they completely lost and contributed to their bankruptcy in 1991.

The difference, though, is that an occupation could work, as the public does not support the Taliban, and you don't have a world superpower funding the enemy, like how the U.S. funded the Soviet opposition. If you destroy the Taliban government, most resistance would likely fall apart this time around, but I fear I might be underestimating the nation that even Soviet armies could not conquer...

Melon

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Old 09-17-2001, 12:39 AM   #15
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mellon, i agree completely.

and for a short answer to your title: NO.

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