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Old 02-08-2005, 06:37 PM   #16
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I will say that I don't think that LPOE is not about the Global War on Terror, it sounds a lot more like the Israeli Arab conflict (daughters of Zion / Abrahams son).
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Old 02-08-2005, 06:43 PM   #17
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:07 PM   #18
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Two things quickly:

"One Tree Hill" mentions the name of Victor Jara, one of the poets that Bono highly admires, who was killed by the U.S. financed military coup which took over Chile in 1973. (Remember Bono's admonition to Gen. Augusto Pinichet during Popmart : "Tell these women where are their children"?).

Second, I think it is the Bush supporters in this thread who are making the biggest assumptions about Bono.

I just gave you BONO'S OWN WORDS FROM YESTERDAY which shows he is highly p#ssed off with the Bush administration for its lack of monetary follow-through in the struggle against AIDS and extreme poverty.

How can you sit there after reading Bono's own words and pretend like he has anything in common with Bush?

LET BONO SPEAK FOR HIMSELF AND DON'T TRIVIALIZE HIS OWN WORDS.
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:39 AM   #19
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If you read that speech of Bono's that anu posted, you will see several lines that show that Bono still holds the same views, but has become much smarter at voicing them.

Quote:
We like to give, and we give a lot. But justice is a tougher standard. Africa makes a fool of our idea of justice; it makes a farce of our idea of equality. It mocks our pieties, it doubts our concern, it questions our commitment.

Because there's no way we can look at Africa -- a continent bursting into flames -- and if we're honest conclude that it would ever be allowed to happen anywhere else. Anywhere else. Certainly not here. In Europe. Or America. Or Australia, or Canada.

There's just no chance.

You see, deep down, if we really accepted that Africans were equal to us, we would all do more to put the fire out.

...

But in these distressing and disturbing times, surely it's cheaper, and smarter, to make friends out of potential enemies than it is to defend yourself against them.

Can I just say that again?

Surely it's cheaper, and smarter, to make friends out of potential enemies than it is to defend yourself against them.

Africa is not the frontline on the war against terror. But it could be soon. Justice is the surest way to get to peace.

...

The problems facing the developing world afford us in the developed world a chance to redescribe ourselves in very dangerous times.

This is not just heart -- it's smart.

Onerous debt burdens, decreasing aid levels, duplicitious trade rules, no wonder people are pissed off with us.

Listen, I know what this looks like, rock star standing up here, shouting imperatives others have to fulfill. But that's what we do, rock stars. Rock stars get to wave flags, shout at the barricades, and escape to the South of France. We're unaccountable. We behave accordingly. But not you. You can't. You can't do that.

See, we're actually counting on you.

...

And trade. Our badge of shame. We in the rich countries shuffle the poorest into a backroom, tie their hands and feet with our conditionalities and then use our subsidies to deliver the final blow.

We have to reform the CAP, and we have to let democratically elected governments -- not the IMF, not the World Bank, not the WTO, not the EU -- decide what policies work best.

We can't fix every problem, but the ones we can we must.

...

Earlier I described the deaths of 6,500 Africans a day from a preventable treatable disease like AIDS: I watched people queuing up to die, three in a bed in Malawi.

That's Africa's crisis. But the fact that we in Europe or America are not treating it like an emergency -- and the fact that its not every day on the news, well that is our crisis.

And that's not horseshit, that's something much worse, I don't even know what that says about us.
There will be books written.


etc...
These are not the words and thoughts and challenges of someone gone soft.
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:14 AM   #20
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As with any literary or lyrical work, there's never one *correct* interpretation. My invocation of the Victor Jara reference in One Tree Hill is not nullified by its alternate, perhaps primary reading pointed out by another person (thanks, I had honestly forgotten that part of the story).

"Love and Peace or Else" is not *specific* enough to limit it to one conflict, which is why I extrapolate it as a statement about the *war* between the world views that is behind US vs Iraq *and* Israel vs Palestine.

I'm sure Bono loves his fans, in and out of uniform, for or against the war. I can live with disagreements on the list and am enjoying the discussion.

On the topic of mis-interpreting Bush, that's another story. Individual Republikans may not be *anti-gay* or *anti-poor* in their heart of hearts, but these adjectives are the stated policy of the Bush administration. It's an uambiguous attack.

The best way to support "our troops" is to oppose the reckless, immoral, and illegal foreign policies that kill them without cause. The invasion and occupation of Iraq are without just cause and violate both US laws, international laws, and basic moral law.

While opposing the Taliban had legitimacy, using September 11th as a blanket excuse to return US foreign policy to a Vietnam-era, imperialist mentality isn't justice or democracy, it's state-sponsored terrorism.

Do you know why we won't have a draft? Because private contractors are recruiting peasants from Latin America to create Salvadoran-style death squads for the middle East (I swear I am not making this up).

But Bono's current thesis seems to be an economic one. Fight economic injustice and the *causes* of war will be attacked at the root.

(I've only been a member of this online community for a short while, but I've following and studying, breathing and singing U2 since 1983. This band's music is part of my deepest spritual life, not a sort of passing fancy.)
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:51 AM   #21
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Bono's learned alot about politics and politicians over the years. He's a bright guy, and he's playing his cards right.
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Old 02-09-2005, 04:41 PM   #22
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I think Bono has continued to find a gateway to express himself politically through music, and it shows in songs like "Love and Peace or Else", "Crumbs From Your Table", and "Fast Cars."

I believe he is doing his work in the way that will get the most effective results - avoiding any way of pissing off those who he is working with. It's not every rock star that gets respect from politicians, and it's not every rock star who has a heart as dedicated and empathetic as he is. I think he's being wiser than ever before, and he's making things happen.
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Old 02-09-2005, 05:36 PM   #23
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I thought the Edge was the most liberal, but I'm sure they all are.
Conservatives are used to having their rock stars be liberal. If that's what inspires them to make great songs, so be it. Conservatives are all for love, peace, etc. and against human suffering, hunger and poverty. We just have different ideas about if and how these things can come about. SO I can sing along with Bono to most of his songs and believe in the lyrics I'm singing.

My favorite band is the Clash and Strummer was way out there on the left, although later he felt a bit silly about some of the beliefs he had.

Re: Bono- I did breathe a big sigh of relief when he said that he thought the whole "blood for oil" slogan was a crock. So I know he's not a kook at least.
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Old 02-09-2005, 05:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I think Bono's become wiser, and he knows that while rants may make an impact and swearing his mouth off attract attention and makes him feel good, they don't necessarily gain results. Some people, of course, aren't going to appreciate that and are going to say he has gone soft, but he's fighting the toughest battles and a few angry rants will only disadvantage himself, and more importantly, those he's trying to help.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I think Bono has continued to find a gateway to express himself politically through music, and it shows in songs like "Love and Peace or Else", "Crumbs From Your Table", and "Fast Cars."

I believe he is doing his work in the way that will get the most effective results - avoiding any way of pissing off those who he is working with. It's not every rock star that gets respect from politicians, and it's not every rock star who has a heart as dedicated and empathetic as he is. I think he's being wiser than ever before, and he's making things happen.
Quite.
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
Two things quickly:

"One Tree Hill" mentions the name of Victor Jara, one of the poets that Bono highly admires, who was killed by the U.S. financed military coup which took over Chile in 1973. (Remember Bono's admonition to Gen. Augusto Pinichet during Popmart : "Tell these women where are their children"?).

Second, I think it is the Bush supporters in this thread who are making the biggest assumptions about Bono.

I just gave you BONO'S OWN WORDS FROM YESTERDAY which shows he is highly p#ssed off with the Bush administration for its lack of monetary follow-through in the struggle against AIDS and extreme poverty.

How can you sit there after reading Bono's own words and pretend like he has anything in common with Bush?

LET BONO SPEAK FOR HIMSELF AND DON'T TRIVIALIZE HIS OWN WORDS.
Well, look at BONO's WORDS IN THE YEAR END HOT PRESS ISSUE FOR 2001 and you''ll see him express his support for the Bush administration and the war on terror!

Its not an assumption, its a fact!

Because one is critical of another does not mean they do not support several things that person does.
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anu
As with any literary or lyrical work, there's never one *correct* interpretation. My invocation of the Victor Jara reference in One Tree Hill is not nullified by its alternate, perhaps primary reading pointed out by another person (thanks, I had honestly forgotten that part of the story).

"Love and Peace or Else" is not *specific* enough to limit it to one conflict, which is why I extrapolate it as a statement about the *war* between the world views that is behind US vs Iraq *and* Israel vs Palestine.

I'm sure Bono loves his fans, in and out of uniform, for or against the war. I can live with disagreements on the list and am enjoying the discussion.

On the topic of mis-interpreting Bush, that's another story. Individual Republikans may not be *anti-gay* or *anti-poor* in their heart of hearts, but these adjectives are the stated policy of the Bush administration. It's an uambiguous attack.

The best way to support "our troops" is to oppose the reckless, immoral, and illegal foreign policies that kill them without cause. The invasion and occupation of Iraq are without just cause and violate both US laws, international laws, and basic moral law.

While opposing the Taliban had legitimacy, using September 11th as a blanket excuse to return US foreign policy to a Vietnam-era, imperialist mentality isn't justice or democracy, it's state-sponsored terrorism.

Do you know why we won't have a draft? Because private contractors are recruiting peasants from Latin America to create Salvadoran-style death squads for the middle East (I swear I am not making this up).

But Bono's current thesis seems to be an economic one. Fight economic injustice and the *causes* of war will be attacked at the root.

(I've only been a member of this online community for a short while, but I've following and studying, breathing and singing U2 since 1983. This band's music is part of my deepest spritual life, not a sort of passing fancy.)
My friends and I have followed the band closely since 1987 and have actually met the band as well!

The Bush administration is not anti-poor or anti-gay, they simply have a different approach to various controversy's or problems than the democrats do.


The invasion of Iraq was authorized by 3 different UN Security Council Resolutions and was necessary because of Saddam's continued refusal to comply with the conditions of the March 1991 Gulf War Ceace Fire agreement. The war was necessary to insure the security and stability of the planets energy supplies and the region's people from the threat that Saddam posed. Saddam had invaded and attacked four different countries, used WMD more times than any leader in history and murdered 1.7 million people in his reign. His refusal to comply with 17 different UN Security Council Resolutions passed under Chapter 17 rules of the United Nations made the invasion of Iraq in 2003 a necessity.

It would have been immoral, to disregard are own security and the planets in light of what Saddam had done and was capable of doing in the future. Today, the Iraqi people are experiencing freedom for the first time, and the elections last week saw Iraqi's come out by the millions to vote, something that would not have been possible if the anti-war crowd had its way and let Saddam continue in power.

THE BEST WAY TO SUPPORT our troops is to increase the defense budget to buy the latest weapons, provide the most realistic training and increase their pay and benifits. When it comes to foreign policy, the troops are best supported when the government takes preventive action to head of threats before they fully materialize. The foreign war that killed the most US soldiers history was World War II. But if the United States had kept a strong military prior to the war and had intervened early when Hitler was coming to power, millions of lives and soldiers lives would have been saved.

Avoiding conflict does not solve the problem, and can often lead to worse things as World War II is a good example of. The troops bleed less in war time, when they have been provided with the latest technology and training and when they are sent into situations where they are breaking up threats that have not fully materialized.

If conflict can be realistically avoided or the security objectives be achieved without military action, then obviously that is the way to go. But waiting when military action is a necessity will often mean a far more bloody and difficult situation for the troops once military action is decided upon.


The United States was not an imperialist power during the Vietnam War, rather it tried to prevent a Communist Dictatorship from enslaving millions of South Vietnamese. If it had not been for the liberals and anti-war mood that won out in the early 1970s, the United States would never have abandoned South Vietnam. Unfortunately, that was not the case and millions of South Vietnamese have been living under Communist Dictatorship ever since 1975.


The Salvadoran Death Squad thing has been blown way out of proporation. There had been the suggestion of using Shia and Kurdish militia groups to try and infultrate Sunni insurgency groups in order to capture or kill its leaders.

There is no military draft because there is NO need for one! The United States has 84 Army, Army National Guard and Marine Combat Brigades. Out of the 84 Brigades, 32 of them are deployed in combat zones or potential combat zones. The other 52 are currently in peacetime deployments but are rotated into combat zones to relieve and let those Brigades rest an refit.

Retention for Active Duty units is high for the Army and all of the recruiting goals for 2004 were met with the exception of the Army Reserve. Contrast that with 1998 during peacetime when the Active Army fell 10,000 people short of its recruiting goal.
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The Bush administration is not ... anti-gay, they simply have a different approach to various controversy's or problems than the democrats do.
Bullshit. Plain bullshit. The Bush Administration has blocked all and every attempt at giving gays EQUAL RIGHTS. So fine...they don't want gays to marry. Why haven't they pushed non-discrimination legislation? And I'm in love with a Canadian. Did you know that there's absolutely no mechanism for him to legally immigrate to the U.S.? If I want to stay with him for the rest of my life, I will have to move to Canada. Period. I shouldn't have to choose between love and country....things that fucking heteros take for granted every single goddamn day of their lives.

Don't ever ever ever ever tell me that the Bush Administration is not "anti-gay." Next time, ASK a gay person sometime whether or not the GOP and the Bush Administration is meeting their needs, rather than quoting from some supply-side conservative agitprop.

Every single day, I'm reminded why I will never vote Republican. And every single day, I'm reminded why I hate Bush with every fiber of my being. He could end terrorism or balance the fucking budget for all I care, but every day I cannot be with the one I love, I blame Bush and the GOP. And, yes, they are squarely and 100% to blame, because Democrats have introduced an immigration bill every year since 2001, and every year since 2001, the GOP has refused to even consider it.

Fuck Bush. Fuck the Republican Party. I hope they both rot in hell for eternity.

Melon
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Well, look at BONO's WORDS IN THE YEAR END HOT PRESS ISSUE FOR 2001 and you''ll see him express his support for the Bush administration and the war on terror!
What he said was nowhere near that sweeping or unambiguous, but anyway here it is.

BONO: Aside from the fact that the media has had very little access, and that's unnerving, I don't think historically the way this campaign has been waged against terror will be seen as anything other than a success in terms of the least loss of human life and a certain measuredness, which most of the world weren't expecting from the United States. And reading the New York Times report of the fall of Kabul and journalists walking around, there's hardly any civilian targets hit. That was kind of miraculous. Any civilian target hit is unacceptable. But I used to be a pacifist. I'm no longer a pacifist - and not because I don't want to be, but because I can't live up to it in my own life. It's a source of deep sadness to me that I can't. If somebody was threatening my wife and my kids I would not turn the other cheek and it's patently clear to anyone living in New York or London or Los Angeles or Chicago that in a matter of months, and certainly years, whole corners of their cities were about to be taken out...whether it's chemicals or dirty nuclear devices, whatever they're calling them. So I don't see any alternative to what they've done.

HOT PRESS: Is that not a bit of a shift from where U2 have come in the past on issues like this?

B: Having bitten the arse of American foreign policy for the first ten years of my life in U2, I think you have to give them credit where credit is due.

HP: Does that mean that what happened in Mazar-I-Sharif - where U.S. agents and British agents were involved, alongside Northern Alliance troops, in a gun battle in which dozens of Taliban soldiers were shot with their hands tied behind their backs - is OK?

B: Of course not. I think it's important to support the Americans in Afghanistan - but without supporting any heinous acts that occur during the war, whether by accident or design. If there are grotesque acts of war contrary to the Geneva Convention, they should be investigated. But there's a lazy-mindedness about people sitting on the fence in this. It's actually not acceptable, especially people who are living across the road from Sellafield, which surely would be one of the prime targets had the conflict escalated. I think there's a certain emergency aspect to going after these people. So I'm not full of criticism for the way the Americans have behaved. I'm with them.

HP: Is that not just a case of saying, "I'm with them because I'm one of them and I'm not with the other guys because I'm not of them?" What happened in New York was clearly an outrage on a scale that no one...

B: But it's not what happened even in New York, it's what was about to happen! We've been writing songs about suitcase bombs since 1983. I felt like...Martin Amis, you know, writes in Einstein's Monster about a certain sickness in the pit of his stomach as he put his child to bed at night and went to write on this subject, of what is available in the world's nuclear arsenal. And just even thinking about it and realising how close to the abyss we're all staring. And that was in the '80s, before such capabilities had slipped out from under any kind of formal policing and gone underground. I mean, these people have no regard for anything that you and I hold dear and sacred, least of all women. And these people were about to take hold of the capability to take out South County Dublin, if not the entire city. They'd never get the fucking Northside, mind you! (Laughs) We could withstand anything! But they'd get you lot!

HP: People are driven to extremes because of what they perceive to be the injustices in their own position and, in relation to Palestine, the extent to which they are the victims of violence and oppression.

B: I don't think it is comparable. Everyone knew that there is deep and grave injustice in the Middle East, everybody knew that. But nobody knew that somebody might be prepared to take what could have been 50,000 lives, innocent civilian lives, as part of that conflict. In the Book of Terror that chapter had never even been written. No one in their wildest dreams, none of the architects of modern terrorism - which is how to grab a hold of the headlines for a few days by sacrificing civilian lives - no one had ever imagined that kind of scale.

HP: Is this not just an inevitable response to the malign role the U.S. role has occupied in the region for years now?

B: I have a completely different set of opinions on how Afghanistan got to the state it was in, in the first place. I've a completely different set of opinions on how the United States and Russia left the country in ruins. I'm prepared to criticise there - but I'm not prepared to criticise this campaign because I think they've actually done as well as can be expected. I'm amazed. I thought they would go in in a knee-jerk way and set off a much greater conflict, which surely was Osama bin Laden's intention. He wasn't expecting them to behave in a measured way. His real goal, surely, is nothing to do with America. He's trying to reclaim Islam from the moderates and follow the Shiite traditions, back to the Middle Ages. He was expecting America to overreact, and in that sense he was sacrificing Afghanistan, as well as the people of New York and Washington; he was expecting overwhelming force and actually he got a much more tactical game. That's my fucking rant on it.
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Old 02-09-2005, 08:04 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


What he said was nowhere near that sweeping or unambiguous, but anyway here it is.

BONO: Aside from the fact that the media has had very little access, and that's unnerving, I don't think historically the way this campaign has been waged against terror will be seen as anything other than a success in terms of the least loss of human life and a certain measuredness, which most of the world weren't expecting from the United States. And reading the New York Times report of the fall of Kabul and journalists walking around, there's hardly any civilian targets hit. That was kind of miraculous. Any civilian target hit is unacceptable. But I used to be a pacifist. I'm no longer a pacifist - and not because I don't want to be, but because I can't live up to it in my own life. It's a source of deep sadness to me that I can't. If somebody was threatening my wife and my kids I would not turn the other cheek and it's patently clear to anyone living in New York or London or Los Angeles or Chicago that in a matter of months, and certainly years, whole corners of their cities were about to be taken out...whether it's chemicals or dirty nuclear devices, whatever they're calling them. So I don't see any alternative to what they've done.

HOT PRESS: Is that not a bit of a shift from where U2 have come in the past on issues like this?

B: Having bitten the arse of American foreign policy for the first ten years of my life in U2, I think you have to give them credit where credit is due.

HP: Does that mean that what happened in Mazar-I-Sharif - where U.S. agents and British agents were involved, alongside Northern Alliance troops, in a gun battle in which dozens of Taliban soldiers were shot with their hands tied behind their backs - is OK?

B: Of course not. I think it's important to support the Americans in Afghanistan - but without supporting any heinous acts that occur during the war, whether by accident or design. If there are grotesque acts of war contrary to the Geneva Convention, they should be investigated. But there's a lazy-mindedness about people sitting on the fence in this. It's actually not acceptable, especially people who are living across the road from Sellafield, which surely would be one of the prime targets had the conflict escalated. I think there's a certain emergency aspect to going after these people. So I'm not full of criticism for the way the Americans have behaved. I'm with them.

HP: Is that not just a case of saying, "I'm with them because I'm one of them and I'm not with the other guys because I'm not of them?" What happened in New York was clearly an outrage on a scale that no one...

B: But it's not what happened even in New York, it's what was about to happen! We've been writing songs about suitcase bombs since 1983. I felt like...Martin Amis, you know, writes in Einstein's Monster about a certain sickness in the pit of his stomach as he put his child to bed at night and went to write on this subject, of what is available in the world's nuclear arsenal. And just even thinking about it and realising how close to the abyss we're all staring. And that was in the '80s, before such capabilities had slipped out from under any kind of formal policing and gone underground. I mean, these people have no regard for anything that you and I hold dear and sacred, least of all women. And these people were about to take hold of the capability to take out South County Dublin, if not the entire city. They'd never get the fucking Northside, mind you! (Laughs) We could withstand anything! But they'd get you lot!

HP: People are driven to extremes because of what they perceive to be the injustices in their own position and, in relation to Palestine, the extent to which they are the victims of violence and oppression.

B: I don't think it is comparable. Everyone knew that there is deep and grave injustice in the Middle East, everybody knew that. But nobody knew that somebody might be prepared to take what could have been 50,000 lives, innocent civilian lives, as part of that conflict. In the Book of Terror that chapter had never even been written. No one in their wildest dreams, none of the architects of modern terrorism - which is how to grab a hold of the headlines for a few days by sacrificing civilian lives - no one had ever imagined that kind of scale.

HP: Is this not just an inevitable response to the malign role the U.S. role has occupied in the region for years now?

B: I have a completely different set of opinions on how Afghanistan got to the state it was in, in the first place. I've a completely different set of opinions on how the United States and Russia left the country in ruins. I'm prepared to criticise there - but I'm not prepared to criticise this campaign because I think they've actually done as well as can be expected. I'm amazed. I thought they would go in in a knee-jerk way and set off a much greater conflict, which surely was Osama bin Laden's intention. He wasn't expecting them to behave in a measured way. His real goal, surely, is nothing to do with America. He's trying to reclaim Islam from the moderates and follow the Shiite traditions, back to the Middle Ages. He was expecting America to overreact, and in that sense he was sacrificing Afghanistan, as well as the people of New York and Washington; he was expecting overwhelming force and actually he got a much more tactical game. That's my fucking rant on it.
He expresses support for the Adminstration and the war on terror above, thats a fact. He also expressed his support for the efforts and actions of US troops who made up the audiance at the Jay Leno show in 2001!
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Old 02-09-2005, 08:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Bullshit. Plain bullshit. The Bush Administration has blocked all and every attempt at giving gays EQUAL RIGHTS. So fine...they don't want gays to marry. Why haven't they pushed non-discrimination legislation? And I'm in love with a Canadian. Did you know that there's absolutely no mechanism for him to legally immigrate to the U.S.? If I want to stay with him for the rest of my life, I will have to move to Canada. Period. I shouldn't have to choose between love and country....things that fucking heteros take for granted every single goddamn day of their lives.

Don't ever ever ever ever tell me that the Bush Administration is not "anti-gay." Next time, ASK a gay person sometime whether or not the GOP and the Bush Administration is meeting their needs, rather than quoting from some supply-side conservative agitprop.

Every single day, I'm reminded why I will never vote Republican. And every single day, I'm reminded why I hate Bush with every fiber of my being. He could end terrorism or balance the fucking budget for all I care, but every day I cannot be with the one I love, I blame Bush and the GOP. And, yes, they are squarely and 100% to blame, because Democrats have introduced an immigration bill every year since 2001, and every year since 2001, the GOP has refused to even consider it.

Fuck Bush. Fuck the Republican Party. I hope they both rot in hell for eternity.

Melon
I'm sure Dick Cheney's daughter and log Cabin Republicans would object to much of what you have said. There are Gay people who showed up on November 2, 2004 and voted for Bush.

When you say "Republican Party", I hope your not refering to myself and the others in the forum who are proud members of that party.
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