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Old 06-25-2004, 02:38 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Popmartijn
What is it with these oldies? We have Mark Twain here, some Orwell there, etc. And all those quotes seem so relevant today.
I know. Wasn't it nbc who used to have a quote from the Bible? I think he's beaten us all in the race for the oldest quote there.
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:21 PM   #32
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The BJ thing was just a joke! I'm not saying it was the worst thing he did in office, I'm saying he surely did quite a bit he'd have been bashed for had he been a republican.
No the worst thing he did was lied under oath. It had nothing to do with a BJ.....It had to do with a pattern of sexual harassment in which he targeted women that were subordinates. But you can say it was about a BJ if you want.
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:36 PM   #33
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Old 06-25-2004, 05:15 PM   #34
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I think you're giving Bush too much credit: I would never describe him as a statesman.

Actually I chose my signature because I find it intriguing that a comment written by Mark Twain nearly a century ago is so relevant today. Although, had I been thinking of a particular politician when I chose the quote, it was more likely to have been Tony Blair and not, as you assume, George Bush.
No offense, but I think you may have missed the point...
Whether the quote is directed towards George Bush or Tony Blair, either way it's a personal attack that is assuming something about the heart and character of a person you have never met rather than sticking to the issue of WHY you disagree with their policy decisions.

(BTW, your statement "I think you're giving Bush too much credit: I would never describe him as a statesman" is also a personal attack which adds nothing to the policy debate and is likely to elicit more of the "you just hate Bush" responses that you mentioned earlier).

Bono set a great example last year when talking about the war. When he was asked what he thought about Tony Blair's decisions, Bono first stated that he thought Tony Blair was a "great politician" who truly believed in what he was doing, and only then did Bono go on to say that he disagreed with him.

In other words, while some people were engaging in personal attacks by calling Blair names like "Bush's lapdog", Bono went out of his way to first show respect towards Blair as a human being before discussing their differences.

This is an example that I believe we can all learn from.
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Old 06-25-2004, 05:41 PM   #35
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In other words, while some people were engaging in personal attacks by calling Blair names like "Bush's lapdog", Bono went out of his way to first show respect towards Blair as a human being before discussing their differences.

This is an example that I believe we can all learn from.
Please come to FYM more. I could care less what your politics are...the new face is refreshing.
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Old 06-25-2004, 05:50 PM   #36
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Whether the quote is directed towards George Bush or Tony Blair, either way it's a personal attack that is assuming something about the heart and character of a person you have never met rather than sticking to the issue of WHY you disagree with their policy decisions.
Tony Blair is a liar. I don't believe I need to have met the man to make that judgement. Here's just one example: in 2001 he promised not to introduce top-up fees for UK universities. In 2004 his government passed a bill that did just that. He lied in his 2001 manifesto. Another example: when the story broke about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq, Mr. Blair initially claimed to have known nothing about the ICRC report on the subject. A few days later his story had changed to having known the report existed but not having read it. A few days later his story changed again. It was such a collection of half-truths and cover-ups that I and many other people feel justified in questioning his honesty.

How many people here would agree that Saddam Hussein is evil? All of us? And how many of us have met him? None. We make a judgement about his character based on what we know of his actions. Why are we not entitled to make judgements about Tony Blair, George Bush or any other politician based on their actions and behaviour while in office? Why, for that matter, is it acceptable for people to make judgements about Bill Clinton's character based on him having an affair, but not acceptable for people to make judgments about George Bush based on his decision to enter into a war many considered to be both illegal and immoral?

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Bush and Blair to Saddam Hussein. Don't even bother trying to spin it that way. Thank-you.

Quote:
Bono set a great example last year when talking about the war. When he was asked what he thought about Tony Blair's decisions, Bono first stated that he thought Tony Blair was a "great politician" who truly believed in what he was doing, and only then did Bono go on to say that he disagreed with him.
I don't consider Mr. Blair a great politician and to pretend that I do would be disingenuous. Why would you respect my criticism of Mr. Blair anymore if I prefaced it with some insincere comments about his integrity?
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:12 PM   #37
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Most people have made judgements about Clinton in Office. He attempted to rape a woman while Governor of Arkansas. He pressured women into sex while governor of Arkansas. He lied, after swearing on the bible to tell the truth during a court proceding as President of the United States, a position in which his main function is to uphold the laws of the United States.

As a soldier in the armed forces, I watched people lose their rank over affairs with subordinates, and one person lost their career for lying about it. While in the service I watched a female piolet lose her career for having an affair. I watched my wife's cousin, a nurse lose her rank because of lying about an affair.

WHy shouldn't we hold the President accountable for LYING in court. We hold our soldiers to this standard.

It is unfortunate that so many would paint it otherwise.
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Please start a thread and explain how the war was illegitimate and illegal. The UN has passed MULTIPLE resolutions supporting the coalition.

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And Klaus I am sorry for the direction this thread has gone. It was a good thread, but it gets old holding my tongue at things people type.

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Old 06-25-2004, 06:14 PM   #38
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You can't be serious! Clinton was hounded by the conservatives and the press from the second he announced his candidacy to the second he left office. If it wasn't some supposed sex scandal, it was Whitewater. If it wasn't some conspiracy theory about a man who committed suicide, it was moaning that his staff were all Hollywood liberal elitist types. Have you forgotten the week after week after week of headlines about Whitewater, and the way that when Clinton was found to have done nothing wrong, the media printed it as a sentence or two on page 37. Have you forgotten the way the mainstream media picked up ridiculous stories being run by tabloids with no credibility whatsoever?

Sure Bush gets his share of criticism in the press, but to pretend that the media gave Clinton an easy time is just ignoring the facts.
Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make. Clinton was slammed by the media just as much as any president, it just so happen that his faults were that of a personal kind and shouldn't have been brought forth for investigation. So you really can't even compare the two. In fact, if Clinton would have executed just half of what Bush has, the Republicans would have already had him on trial and probably impeached by now. I honestly think the Democrats have been somewhat chickenshit and let Bush get away with far too much.
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:19 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Most people have made judgements about Clinton in Office. He attempted to rape a woman while Governor of Arkansas. He pressured women into sex while governor of Arkansas. He lied, after swearing on the bible to tell the truth during a court proceding as President of the United States, a position in which his main function is to uphold the laws of the United States.

As a soldier in the armed forces, I watched people lose their rank over affairs with subordinates, and one person lost their career for lying about it. While in the service I watched a female piolet lose her career for having an affair. I watched my wife's cousin, a nurse lose her rank because of lying about an affair.

WHy shouldn't we hold the President accountable for LYING in court. We hold our soldiers to this standard.

It is unfortunate that so many would paint it otherwise.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please start a thread and explain how the war was illegitimate and illegal. The UN has passed MULTIPLE resolutions supporting the coalition.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Klaus I am sorry for the direction this thread has gone. It was a good thread, but it gets old holding my tongue at things people type.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So we should go into the bedrooms of all politicians? Then Jack Ryan should be ousted, Arnold should be terminated, and while we're bringing in personal demons Bush shouldn't have been able to run because he's an addict.
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:29 PM   #40
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You can't be serious! Clinton was hounded by the conservatives and the press from the second he announced his candidacy to the second he left office. If it wasn't some supposed sex scandal, it was Whitewater. If it wasn't some conspiracy theory about a man who committed suicide, it was moaning that his staff were all Hollywood liberal elitist types. Have you forgotten the week after week after week of headlines about Whitewater, and the way that when Clinton was found to have done nothing wrong, the media printed it as a sentence or two on page 37. Have you forgotten the way the mainstream media picked up ridiculous stories being run by tabloids with no credibility whatsoever?

Sure Bush gets his share of criticism in the press, but to pretend that the media gave Clinton an easy time is just ignoring the facts.
You forgot the 'their side' part. I mean, the kind of people who usually get after someone left him alone because he was a liberal. It doesn't count when conservatives pick on him, because liberals always discount them as stupid and at everything they say anyway so it's disregarded. Then all you get is liberals making fun of conservatives for making fun of Clinton, but it's not the same hardcore dragging through the mud you guys did to Reagan and Bush.
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:38 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


No the worst thing he did was lied under oath. It had nothing to do with a BJ.....
I KNOW! I was just using the BJ for a joke and it backfired 3 times already! He DID lie under oath. I also heard that in his new book he admits Monica was right about the dates of their relationship even though he denied it in court! So he knows now there is no double jeapordy so he can do it, so he was lying on purpose at the time!

But nobody who is on his side cares, because they like him! If Bush lied under oath, yeehaw can you image what the people here would say and how he'd be dragged over the hot coals!!
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:40 PM   #42
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Originally posted by TheFirstBigW

Bono set a great example last year when talking about the war. When he was asked what he thought about Tony Blair's decisions, Bono first stated that he thought Tony Blair was a "great politician" who truly believed in what he was doing, and only then did Bono go on to say that he disagreed with him.

In other words, while some people were engaging in personal attacks by calling Blair names like "Bush's lapdog", Bono went out of his way to first show respect towards Blair as a human being before discussing their differences.

This is an example that I believe we can all learn from.
Affording someone the basic respect of a human being does not necessarily mean glorifying them before criticizing them.

You are not talking so much about respect, IMO, as you are about diplomacy. Bono is a diplomat, so he will temper his statements. Joe Blow sitting at home may very well find Blair to be a liar and not much more and voicing that opinion is not particularly disrespectful; it is the interpretation of facts as that person sees them, that's called an opinion and you know those are like assholes, everybody's got one.
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Old 06-25-2004, 09:17 PM   #43
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So we should go into the bedrooms of all politicians? Then Jack Ryan should be ousted, Arnold should be terminated, and while we're bringing in personal demons Bush shouldn't have been able to run because he's an addict.
Did you read a word of what I wrote? Just curious. It is only the gazilienth time I have said int his forum that it has everything in the world to do with LYING UNDER OATH.

Kennedy was one of my favorite Presidents. I could care less about the sex......its the lying under oath that makes me sick to my stomach.

Has Arnold been charged with a crime and lied under oath?
has Jack Ryan (Why oh Why would he want Jeri to do such things?) been charged with a crime and lied under oath?

I am consistent with my opinions. Personal life is one thing, but if the president or other public official is brought into a court, it should be the truth that comes out of their mouths.
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Old 06-25-2004, 09:24 PM   #44
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I will add this. I had the pleasure of working with the secret service multiple times. I had the pleasure of guarding Governor Clinton during the 24 hours of his famous 60 minutes interview. the back of my head made the Boston Globe and Herald in some photos as I was helping keep the crowds away. He was a nice person. I would not have minded getting a beer with the man. I would say the same thing about Al Gore, who helped me and another collegue play a joke on someone. It is not that I hate these people, I enjoyed meeting them in the limited way that I did. President Clinton had a reputation, and I could have cared less aboutit. What I do care about is the fact that he lied in a court deposition. I do feel that he should be held to the same standards as we hold servicemen and women, and lying under oath is not tolorated.
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Old 06-25-2004, 09:30 PM   #45
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Klaus:
Sorry for distracting from the subject of your thread.

Dreadsox:
Thanks.

FizzingWhizzbees and anitram:
I guess what I'm saying is that when I hear Bono speaking, I hear love and respect coming through, but when I hear all of these political personal attacks, all that I hear is bad blood and derision.
Since Bono was able to become friends with and find some good in both Bill Clinton and George Bush, it leads me to believe that maybe the bitter enemies of both men are a little bit misguided and are perhaps allowing something other than love and respect to guide their thinking.
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