Does Hypocracy make one wrong?

[Dreadsox]

I have been thinking about this for a week now. I have been thinking about Rush. While I do not agree with every word the man has spoken, and I am sure many of you here do not agree with many things he has said, it is apparent that he has made comments that I still find to be true about drugs.

[Q]"There's nothing good about drug use. We know it. It destroys individuals. It destroys families. Drug use destroys societies. Drug use, some might say, is destroying this country. And we have laws against selling drugs, pushing drugs, using drugs, importing drugs. And the laws are good because we know what happens to people in societies and neighborhoods which become consumed by them. And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up."[/Q]

I find nothing wrong with this statement.It seems to make sense to me. Yes it definitely makes him a hypocrite, but does that change the fact that the words he spoke on the topic were correct?

[Q]Even though blacks and whites break the drug laws in roughly equal percentages, he noted, black druggies go to prison far more often than white druggies do. But to the liberal-bashing host, this was no reason to ease up on blacks.

"What this says to me," he told his listeners that day, "is that too many whites are getting away with drug use. Too many whites are getting away with drug sales. Too many whites are getting away with trafficking in this stuff. The answer to this disparity is not to start letting people out of jail because we're not putting others in jail who are breaking the law. The answer is to go out and find the ones who are getting away with it, convict them and send them up the river, too."[/Q]

It is interesting that while many here claim he is a racist, his take is not that of a racist. Are these words wrong? Is the answer to let people out of jail or to punish everyone equally?


[Q]"What is missing in the drug fight," he said, "is legalization. If we want to go after drugs with the same fervor and intensity with which we go after cigarettes, let's legalize drugs. Legalize the manufacture of drugs. License the Cali cartel. Make them taxpayers and then sue them. Sue them left and right and then get control of the price and generate tax revenue from it. Raise the price sky high and fund all sorts of other wonderful social programs."[/Q]

he said this in 1998. Interesting idea.


Just curious.....does his hypocracy change the truth in the words he spoke?

 

[BVS]

Does the hypocricy change the truth in the words spoken? No, but it makes them harder to believe, especially those who look up to him. He may be speaking the truth but he's lying as he's doing it. He won't serve time. He broke the law, but his celebrity status will get him a fine or maybe even community service. He won't live by his own words on this one. This makes him a man of absolutely no integrity in my book.

 

[verte76]

Yes, this creates a credibility problem. He said this stuff about drugs and then turned right around and engaged in some inappropriate behavior concerning these same substances. I don't give a damn if it's "illegal" or "legal" drugs. What's the difference? Many illegal drugs of today used to be legal. They were used as painkillers. They were considered "miracle drugs" until scientists and governments discovered they carried a new evil: addiction. Would you believe they originally made heroin as an "alternative" to opium and morphine after they discovered opiates were addicting, only to find out they'd created the Addicting Drug From Hell? If I got busted doing this I'd probably be headed to the slammer. A celebrity? Nah. Community service. This *is* his third time to rehab, so it's not like he hasn't tried to do something about it. It's still inconsistent.

 

[Klaus]

verte76: excelent

 

[anitram]

I would venture a guess that there is no person in the world who is an idiot 100% of the time. Everybody has something of value to add at some point in their lives, even if it's only 5 minutes in the span of 80 years.

Unfortunately for Rush, it is not in our nature to compartmentalize human behaviours. We look at a human being as an overall person - are they good? Do they do service in their communities, do they strive to be the best they can be, do they wish others no harm, etc, etc. Rush, IMO, is a man of little integrity and few positive qualities. Yes, he may be right at times, but overall, he is not a man I would ever think highly of.

 

[verte76]

It's tough to consider someone who's guilty of this kind of duplicity "virtuous".

 

[Dreadsox]

Rush, IMO, is a man of little integrity and few positive qualities.

I guess you are saying Rush is an idiot. It was obvious you felt this way about the man yesterday when you accused him, without evidence, of ONLY going into rehab because he wished to avoid jail time. You also failed to acknowledge the fact that he has been trying to beat this with two other trips to rehab.

I posted quotes in relation to drug use. One which VERY clearly demonstrates his disappointment that white people are not being prosecuted in the same maner as black people.

Does his drug use invalid the quotes I have posted?

 

[verte76]

Dread, I don't think what he did completely invalidates his statements. It's true that whites and blacks aren't getting the same sort of justice in regards to drug abuse. Also, he wasn't using recreational drugs for the hell of it. Spinal pain, trust me, is real, it's unforgiving and it really sucks. This is his third time in rehab, so he's been fighting this battle for years. I have to wonder how I'll handle it if it gets bad enough for me to have to have surgery on this. I don't like hypocrisy either. But there's a difference in going to a pot party and having spinal problems.

 

[anitram]

I guess you are saying Rush is an idiot. It was obvious you felt this way about the man yesterday when you accused him, without evidence, of ONLY going into rehab because he wished to avoid jail time. You also failed to acknowledge the fact that he has been trying to beat this with two other trips to rehab.

What the hell???

I never said any of those things.

 

[Dreadsox]

Sorry Anitram...I owe you an apology. It was someone else. got my posts confused.

 

[Dreadsox]

Its the pain killers...LOL

 

[Dreadsox]

I will now sing FERNANDO on top of my lungs!

 

[nbcrusader]

His quotes are not invalidated by his addiction. There is no evidence he has requested special leniancy from the system he supports.

We must be careful not to recklessly throw the label "hypocrite" around every time there is an apparent contridiction between someone's statements and their actions. Otherwise, we might all as well stamp ourselves with the hypocrite label, because none of us are perfect.

 

[najeena]

I think the fact that he "chose" to treat his pain with drugs (that he surely knew were addictive) rather than try surgery again speaks volumes. Maybe more than one procedure was neccessary. Being an addict isn't shameful, being a hypocrite (especially in such a HUGE way) about it is.

 

[verte76]

His quotes are not invalidated by his addiction. There is no evidence he has requested special leniancy from the system he supports.

We must be careful not to recklessly throw the label "hypocrite" around every time there is an apparent contridiction between someone's statements and their actions. Otherwise, we might all as well stamp ourselves with the hypocrite label, because none of us are perfect.

Very true. I agree 100%.

 

[verte76]

I think the fact that he "chose" to treat his pain with drugs (that he surely knew were addictive) rather than try surgery again speaks volumes. Maybe more than one procedure was neccessary. Being an addict isn't shameful, being a hypocrite (especially in such a HUGE way) about it is.

I am not sure. The situation is complex. His first surgery didn't work. There was no guarantee that subsequent surgeries would have worked with his particular problem. They would have involved alot of hospitalization. It involved his neck as well as his lower back, and that's a whole different can of worms as neck spinal problems can lead to or cause paralysis, unlike stuff like sciatica which does not. That is something that I, thank God, don't have to worry about. Not all drugs prescribed for these purposes are addicting. The painkillers are. The anti-inflammatories, which I'm now taking, are not. You can throw away your empty bottle of prescription anti-inflammatories and continue with the ibuprofin brand of your choice, like Advil, and not notice a difference, because the drugs act the same way. Been there, done that, with a root canal infection. All of this stuff sucks.

 

[elfyx]

Most drugs are not the problem. An over-zealous and misguided prohibitionist society is more likely the problem for most drugs. That my belief, right off the top. I know I disagree with people on this.

As for Rush, I don't like him. I don't agree with much of what he says. I don't think his comments on 'drugs' are 'the truth' either. I think they are more of the same, more of the above.

I do tend to think he would have kept this secret if he wasn't implicated in a criminal investigation. And I worry how he will spin this to continue an anti-drug agenda, but I'll reserve judgement on that until or if he does. That said, I do feel for him and his pain, and if his pain warranted his need for continued medication, then there should be no problem. In fact, there should be a criminal investigation, because the undertreatment of legitimate pain is a criminal offence. However, there is SOME reason he was (depending on the outcome of the investigation) obtaining those meds from the black-market. In all likely-hood, his addiction moved from physical to psychological. Opiates have been used to treat not only physical pain but mental pain and depression for over 3000 years. If this is the case, then that could explain why he was possibly seeking black-market opiate analgesics. If he was because of his physical pain, then I *really* feel for him, because, as outlined in my post in the 'drug rush' thread, the undertreatment of legitimate chronic pain is an epidemic in this country. I don't know. It is little fact and a lot of speculation at this point and we should be careful to reserve judgement. My 2 cents...

 

[BVS]

hypocrite

n : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold

The man obtained drugs illegally and used them while he preached about those around him who did the same thing. The man is a hypocrite you can't spin any other way.

One can't legally obtain a prescription for these drugs for the length that he did.

I fractured two vertebrae in a skiing accident, I'm minus one vertabrae, and my neck is all kinds of jacked up from a Karate tournemant. I've been living with back and neck pain now for five years. I take nothing for it. The only thing I use to help me is exercise and a chiropracter. His pain is no excuse. I'm sorry he's an addict, I feel for all addicts. But don't talk the talk unless you can walk the walk. No, not a single person is perfect. I'm not close to perfect. But don't preach certain beliefs while you're habitually practicing the opposite.

 

[elfyx]

One can't legally obtain a prescription for these drugs for the length that he did.

Yes you can; many do, and many Doctors say you indeed should.

I fractured two vertebrae in a skiing accident, I'm minus one vertabrae, and my neck is all kinds of jacked up from a Karate tournemant. I've been living with back and neck pain now for five years. I take nothing for it. The only thing I use to help me is exercise and a chiropracter. His pain is no excuse. I'm sorry he's an addict, I feel for all addicts. But don't talk the talk unless you can walk the walk. No, not a single person is perfect. I'm not close to perfect. But don't preach certain beliefs while you're habitually practicing the opposite.

I feel for your pain. You sound like you've been through a rough ride. However, there are compassionate pain management Doctors out there and a lot of fantastic therapies available if you ever feel you need it.

I must disagree with you that Rush's pain is no excuse. I am no fan of Rush, but if he was in legitimate pain, and his Doctor felt it was necessary, then his use of opiate analgesics were legitimate. UNTIL he started abusing them. We still don't know WHY he abused them - whether because he was underprescribed or he was self-medicating a psychological addiction, or some other reason.

Because of these prevailing ideas, many people don't think they can receive appropriate therapy for their pain. But it IS available, even if it is becoming more and more difficult due to conflicting laws and an overzealous and misplaced DEA.

 

[BVS]

Yes you can; many do, and many Doctors say you indeed should.

I'd like to see your information regarding this. My friend is a doctor and she says that doctors are not legally able to prescribe drugs like oxycotin for lengths like this. I can't remember the exact cut off date, I'll have to ask her. But if what you said is true than there would be no investigation. Rush could surely find a doctor that would keep giving him presciptions.

 

[elfyx]

I'd like to see your information regarding this. My friend is a doctor and she says that doctors are not legally able to prescribe drugs like oxycotin for lengths like this. I can't remember the exact cut off date, I'll have to ask her. But if what you said is true than there would be no investigation. Rush could surely find a doctor that would keep giving him presciptions.

I'll try to dig up the information. My grandmother has been on long-term opiate therapy for over eight years.

I think the investigation is there because Rush was taking far more than a doctor would prescribe and he turned to the black-market. I think the reports were something like 100 hydros a day. That's a lot, and most doctors would have easily moved on to more effective medications than hydro like oxycontin or hydromophone. If for no other reason than hydrocodone as schedule III must be compounded with APAP (Acetaminophen) which in those quantities are HIGHLY damaging to your liver. I'm sure it has already been done, but he should get liver tests. If he consumed that much compounded medication, it is likely he has permanent liver damage. So, either he was underprescribed, or his addiction turned pyschological in nature. There are a small percentage of people who are prone to the psychological addiction of opiates. I've been on long-term opiate therapy myself. They are physically addicting, but it's fully recoverable and quite safe when used correctly.

What this boils down to is how Rush admits that he is 'addicted' to pain-killers. Someone who is using them legitimely knows the difference between being 'addicted' to medication and being 'dependent' on the medication. Being addicted implies abuse. Being dependent will never imply abuse.

 

[maude]

Does the hypocricy change the truth in the words spoken? No, but it makes them harder to believe....

I find this statement very confusing. You say that his hypocrisy does not change the truth of his words. Ok. I can follow that. But then you add that it makes them harder to believe?

So are you saying that because the words came from Rush Limbaugh's mouth you find it harder to believe that drug abuse is a very negative thing and that the disproportionate punishment of druggies based on race should be solved by not being easier on the black druggies, but rather make the punishments equal among all races?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

to melon and BonoVox's posts.

Angela

 

[bonoman]

I see this case alot more simply then many people here.

For me to believe anything this man had to say about drugs there would be a few things that would need to be cleared up. 1. Was he taking the drugs (illegally) when he made those comments. 2. Is he willing to follow his so called convictions, plead guilty to buying illegal drugs and go to jail.

The later would have to happen for me to believe another word this man ever says. You are a hypocrite if you say one thing and do another.

Another thing, the drug he was taking is from the same family as herion is. It is one of the hardest drugs to get off. If this were a herion addicted homeless person, regardless of color, would they be able to get help, would they not be prosecuted (not saying Rush wont, but i wouldnt bet on it). That is the exact reason there are more black convictions for drug use then whites. They dont have the programs available to help them, white america does.

I could care less for Rush, i would care more for a person who lives on the streets and are srippled with herion, because they are the ones that no-one wants to help.

 

[maude]

I see this case alot more simply then many people here.

No, you evidently don't.

Let's take a look at a simplistic example.

A preacher tells his congregation that murder is wrong.
This same preacher then goes and kills his wife. Is he a hypocrite? Yes. Does that negate the truthfullness of his statement that murder is wrong? Certaintly not.

Rush made statments that more or less said that drug abuse is a very bad thing. We now find that Rush has been abusing drugs. Is he a hypocrite? Yes. Does that negate the truthfullness of his statement that drug abuse is a very bad thing? Can you honestly and logically say that it does?

 

[Dreadsox]

I was basically putting forth that he is a hypocryte. I do not think it is debatable. If he was obtaining legal drugs illegally or illegal drugs it made him a hypocryte.

Nice posts Maude.

 

[Angela Harlem]

"What this says to me," he told his listeners that day, "is that too many whites are getting away with drug use. Too many whites are getting away with drug sales. Too many whites are getting away with trafficking in this stuff. The answer to this disparity is not to start letting people out of jail because we're not putting others in jail who are breaking the law. The answer is to go out and find the ones who are getting away with it, convict them and send them up the river, too."

He will be a hypocrite IF or WHEN this does not happen. Lets see how much stock he puts in his own words. Let him back up his words and volunteer himself a little holiday in jail.
After all, he has tried rehab 2 times.

 

[verte76]

I agree Angela, it's hypocrisy that he wanted the drug users busted and then turned out to be a drug user himself and isn't exactly volunteering to be sent to the slammer. There are people here who know alot more about pain treatments and such than I do. I'm a scientific klutz. I don't know anything about pharmacology. Speaking as just another pain sufferer, for those of us with mild cases the worst thing about the problem just might be the damn stress. I'd hate to see the stressmeter on someone who has nasty pain. Horrors.

 

[BVS]

I find this statement very confusing. You say that his hypocrisy does not change the truth of his words. Ok. I can follow that. But then you add that it makes them harder to believe?

So are you saying that because the words came from Rush Limbaugh's mouth you find it harder to believe that drug abuse is a very negative thing

I was speaking in general. And I was speaking from the perspective of someone who looks up to this person, which I don't. If I'm one that really looks up to this person and idolize this person and he's preaching one thing and then does the other and gets away with it. Then I may be inclined to believe "well it was good enough for him." It doesn't change the truth but it changes the strength of the statement. Just like in your preacher example. If someone in his congregation is confronted with the situation where they are tempted to kill, they may be inclined to think "well Father so and so did it and he's a man of the cloth, maybe just this once." It gives a small grain of justification, especially to those who really look up to the person.

I'm not saying this is right, but it's human nature.

 

[elfyx]

Another thing, the drug he was taking is from the same family as herion is. It is one of the hardest drugs to get off.

While it is true that both heroin and prescription opiate analgesics are both in the opiate class of drugs, there is a widespread misconception that prescription painkillers are just as dangerous, dirty, and hard to come off of as heroin. It simply isn't the case. The strongest medications the medical community will use for pain relief are either morphine, hydromorphone, oxycodone and a few others. Heroine was invented by a German scientist for Bayor Pharmaceuticals. He boiled acetic acid with morphine. The result was diacetylmorphine. Since its lipid solubility allows heroin to pass the blood-brain barrier far more effectively and quickly than any other opiate, the result is a drug that is THREE TIMES more potent than morphine itself. When it comes to its addictive properties, heroin is not even in the same field as medical opiate analgesics.

The fact is the best and wisest doctors in the field all agree that opiate analgesics are not a medical problem, but an ethical one. There is rampant miseducation, fear, and dogma about opiates in general. Study after study have clearly shown that the appropriate medical use of opiate analgesics are very safe. This is sound scientific reasoning. Even when these drugs are ABUSED, as in Rush's case of taking over 100 hydros a day, the withdrawal effects are inherently different than that of heroin. Let me clear something up: why specifically opiates are addictive in nature.

All natural or synthetic opiate derivatives mimic natural human chemicals called endorphins. Endorphine active our opiate receptors, especialy in the limbic system. Their activation causes all the "good" feelings the human body knows: happiness, peace, fearlessness, relaxation, tolerance to pain, etc... Because natural endorphins are, on a molar basis, hundreds to thousands of times more potent than morphine, very few endorphins are actually needed by the body on a relative basis. When an outside opiate comes into the system, the body adjusts by lowering and, on a sustained basis, cutting of it's own production of natural endorphins. The body also adjusts by creating more "fake" opiate receptors in the body. Therefore, a tolerance and addiction develops. When the outside source of opiate receptor activity is dropped, the body is left with a lowered amount of natural endorphins, and a much higher number of receptors to bind to. The result are withdrawal symptoms. If it weren't for our natural endorphins, the human body would constantly be in a state of acute heroin-like withdrawl.

There are two types of addiction that come out of this: physical and psychological.

The physical addiction is highly misunderstood. When the body stops receiving its outside source of opiates, it starts up its own production again. This takes no more than a few days to a week. The "fake" receptor sites will slowly be removed over the course of a couple of months. This is OK; these sites do not allow natural endorphins to bind. An opiate detox program usually takes no more than a week. Once you are off, there is very little "physical' reason to need the drug again.

The psychological addiction is also misunderstood. It feels good to 'feel good'. Especially when you are depressed, anxious, or living in deplorable conditions and are 'escaping' reality. This is the addiction that keeps most people going back to opiates after they've gone through rehab. This is the main cause for remission. But the underlying problem here is not the opiate; instead the depression, anxiety, poverty, etc ... which has driven one to look for an escape. Too often, though, it's the drug that is seen as at fault, and hence an illogical connection is made between the drug and depression, axiety, etc... The worse that unfortunately comes out of this thinking is the cyclic 'trap' of using the drug because you are depressed, and then being depressed because you are using the drug. It's insane.

Heroin and medical opiate analgesics are almost in two different ball-fields when it comes to their physical and psychological addictive properties. My fellow pain sufferers, doctors, and many others are tired of the demonizing opiates have received throughout the years, based on fear, miseducation, rampant racism, xenophobia, and dogma.

Is Rush hypocritical? Yes. Do I think his blanket statements about drugs are correct? No. And yes, I CAN honestly and logically argue that they're not. Somehow, though, I doubt he'll learn much of anything by this experience, much less learn a little humility and compassion, and kick his (my belief: PYSCHOLOGICAL) addiction because he was essentially 'forced' to because he got caught, completely misunderstand the facts at hand, and spin the whole thing into an even stronger anti-drug, anti-opiate agenda. We'll see.