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Old 10-18-2006, 07:15 PM   #16
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^says he's open minded.
good to know.

dbs
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Old 10-18-2006, 08:18 PM   #17
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I remember seeing the Hoyts on Oprah last year and being truly moved and inspired by such unconditional, selfless parental love and what can be accomplished when you choose not to feel sorry for yourself or accept limitations.
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Old 10-18-2006, 09:33 PM   #18
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
I remember seeing the Hoyts on Oprah last year and being truly moved and inspired by such unconditional, selfless parental love and what can be accomplished when you choose not to feel sorry for yourself or accept limitations.
Yes, and that is the purpose of this thread.

To point out that every life has value, to realize that all of God's children have a purpose in the grand scheme of things and to learn from those that can teach us the most.

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Old 10-18-2006, 10:06 PM   #19
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Originally posted by diamond
To point out that every life has value, to realize that all of God's children have a purpose in the grand scheme of things and to learn from those that can teach us the most.
So I take it that if you're declared brain dead that you'll want your body hooked up to life support indefinitely?

After all, every life has value, even the lives of the braindead, apparently.

By the way, thousands of babies are born without a brain each year, and die within a week. I guess that means that God doesn't value life either, by your definition.

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Old 10-18-2006, 11:54 PM   #20
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I can't speak for God Melon, but a book you may want to considering reading can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/One-Tattered-A.../dp/1590380967

It may change your views on the condition of hydraencephaly of which you alluded to, or you may think it too bothersome to read.

In any event, good day.


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Old 10-19-2006, 07:17 AM   #21
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diamond, I made absolutely no reference whatsoever to hydrocephaly ("water in the brain"). I made a direct reference to anencephaly ("no brain").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

Quote:
Infants born with anencephaly are usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a rudimentary brainstem, which controls autonomic and regulatory function, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Reflex actions such as respiration (breathing) and responses to sound or touch may occur. The disorder is one of the most common disorders of the fetal central nervous system.
Quote:
In the United States, approximately 1,000 to 2,000 babies are born with anencephaly each year. Female babies are more likely to be affected by the disorder. About 95% of women who learn that they will have an anencephalic baby choose to have an abortion. Of the remaining 5%, about 55% are stillborn. The rest usually live only a few hours or days.
Terri Shiavo, while not a true anencephalic, because she was born with a brain, deteriorated into this condition. If you have no brain, you die. It's very simple.

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Old 10-19-2006, 08:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Yes, and that is the purpose of this thread.

To point out that every life has value, to realize that all of God's children have a purpose in the grand scheme of things and to learn from those that can teach us the most.

dbs

Can I ask if you've actually ever taken care of someone physically or mentally disabled to the point he or she cannot care for him or herself at all? I have. For well over 20 years now and I'll tell you loads of people say "oh you are a wonderful person for doing this" but very very very very very few are willing to care for my profoundly retarded aunt for even one day while I take a break.

So it's very easy to talk the talk. I wanna know if you walk the walk diamond.
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
diamond, I made absolutely no reference whatsoever to hydrocephaly ("water in the brain"). I made a direct reference to anencephaly ("no brain").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly





Terri Shiavo, while not a true anencephalic, because she was born with a brain, deteriorated into this condition. If you have no brain, you die. It's very simple.

Melon
I still think the book may enlighten you a bit.

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Old 10-19-2006, 09:23 AM   #24
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Yes the Hoyts are awesome and awe inspiring, but that doesn't mean we can pass judgment on anyone or everyone's personal situation because of what they do and did. It's awfully easy to do that when you don't have to live in someone else's shoes.

I'm quite sure everyone here knows that each human life has value and purpose.
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra



Can I ask if you've actually ever taken care of someone physically or mentally disabled to the point he or she cannot care for him or herself at all? I have. For well over 20 years now and I'll tell you loads of people say "oh you are a wonderful person for doing this" but very very very very very few are willing to care for my profoundly retarded aunt for even one day while I take a break.

So it's very easy to talk the talk. I wanna know if you walk the walk diamond.
Yes,I had a father in a wheel chair and although he was etremely limited physically, he had a great mind so no it wouldn't be the same.

I do bet that you have learned things about yourself thru your compassionate service you've given your aunt as I've learned things about myself when devoting my time and energies to assist those who needed assistance.

That said, I do feel this is why in the grand theme of things God places some of his children on earth with some limitations to teach us to be compassionate and to forget about ourselves thereby helping us becoming selfless and less self centered.

Our lives were made to learn to love, not hate and the way we learn to love is thru giving compassionate service to all of God's children (us) but particularily those less fortunate than us.

Does that make any sense?

Hope so.



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Old 10-19-2006, 09:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
diamond, I made absolutely no reference whatsoever to hydrocephaly ("water in the brain"). I made a direct reference to anencephaly ("no brain").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly





Terri Shiavo, while not a true anencephalic, because she was born with a brain, deteriorated into this condition. If you have no brain, you die. It's very simple.

Melon
Not quite, you claim Terri had no brain, but Terri was alive until she was starved to death, even when she had people willing to take care of her.

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Old 10-19-2006, 05:47 PM   #27
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It's not merely a claim. from wikipedia:

**Warning: Science talk ahead. Ask your kids to leave the room.**
Quote:
Microscopic examination revealed extensive damage to nearly all brain regions, including the cerebral cortex, the thalami, the basal ganglia, the hippocampus, the cerebellum, and the midbrain. The neuropathologic changes in her brain were precisely of the type seen in patients who enter a PVS [persistent vegetative state] following cardiac arrest. Throughout the cerebral cortex, the large pyramidal neurons that comprise some 70 percent of cortical cells—critical to the functioning of the cortex—were completely lost [emphasis mine]. The pattern of damage to the cortex, with injury tending to worsen from the front of the cortex to the back, is also typical. There was marked damage to important relay circuits deep in the brain (the thalami)—another common pathologic finding in cases of PVS. The damage was, in the words of Thogmartin [who led the autopsy], "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
In addition, scores of neurologists studied Schiavo's behavior over the course of her life post-collapse and came to the conclusion that she did not show any signs of cognitive recognition, and any movements or responses she did give were not consistent or repeatable (i.e., all evidence points to her movements being reflexive and instinctual rather than cognitive awareness of her surroundings).

I can pretty much guarantee you that these same doctors would look at the Hoyt case and find that yes, obviously there is cognitive awareness.

Now, what I find more interesting in regards to the Schiavo case is that the medical examiners ruled out a heart attack or any eating disorder, two things which Michael Schiavo believes were at fault (he even won a $1M settlement against Terri's obstetrician for failure to diagnose bulimia). Though they pretty ruled out obvious foul play (violence of any sort) as well.
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


It's not merely a claim. from wikipedia:

**Warning: Science talk ahead. Ask your kids to leave the room.**


In addition, scores of neurologists studied Schiavo's behavior over the course of her life post-collapse and came to the conclusion that she did not show any signs of cognitive recognition, and any movements or responses she did give were not consistent or repeatable (i.e., all evidence points to her movements being reflexive and instinctual rather than cognitive awareness of her surroundings).

I can pretty much guarantee you that these same doctors would look at the Hoyt case and find that yes, obviously there is cognitive awareness.

Now, what I find more interesting in regards to the Schiavo case is that the medical examiners ruled out a heart attack or any eating disorder, two things which Michael Schiavo believes were at fault (he even won a $1M settlement against Terri's obstetrician for failure to diagnose bulimia). Though they pretty ruled out obvious foul play (violence of any sort) as well.
and your point is?

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Old 10-19-2006, 07:15 PM   #29
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Originally posted by diamond
Not quite, you claim Terri had no brain, but Terri was alive until she was starved to death, even when she had people willing to take care of her.
Tell me, diamond. How do you think the small percentage of anencephalic babies who survive birth die? Someone with official medical knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong, but they die of starvation, which can take up to a week. Since euthanasia in any form is seen as unethical, they are left to starve to death, since they are, essentially, "living corpses." Without a brain, without consciousness, without feeling, what are you?

I don't care if there were people willing to take care of Terri. There was nothing left to take care of. Without a brain, without consciousness, without feeling, she was a living corpse. All people did was give her parents false hope, and it is very unfortunate that they were led on for so many years to think otherwise.

Nobody said that life was fair.

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Old 10-19-2006, 08:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


and your point is?

dbs
Ignoring the facts that directly contradict your position is an interest debate tactic.
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