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Old 01-16-2005, 01:00 PM   #91
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Originally posted by cardosino


I dislike Falwell and Robertson intensely.

However, these types of guys scare me a lot more

http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=2826236/

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=16639

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38704.htm
That's always a great trick. Look over here don't pay attention to what's in this hand. Sleight of hand will allow the others to just grow scarier and scarier.

But you just keep focusing on those that don't belong to your faith.
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:01 PM   #92
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I was taught the New Testament was the new deal. The Old Testament is the Word of God and is to be studied but the New Testament is the overriding authority when there is conflict. Jesus' and the apostles teachings were often in conflict with the Old Testament
Yes but people still to this day even in this forum quote OT all the time to support their views. It's scary.
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:01 PM   #93
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is only "out of context" if you choose to ignore God's other statements on the subject.
I STILL haven't seen a pro-death-penalty scriptural justification.

Just out of curiousity, why do you suppose most major Christian religious factions are opposed ot it ?

Specifically, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal. Is their scriptural interpretation wrong ?
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:06 PM   #94
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Too much religious scripture debate here. Capital punishment is not a religious issue. Yes, I know Jesus said 'eye for an eye' and all that, but I don't care. This is not a religious issue. This is a human issue.

I know there are people, like U2Kitten, who simply cannot fathom why people who have committed premeditated murder should be allowed to live anymore. People who feel like anyone who would commit such a crime should be punished.

But therein lies the first question: What does punishment accomplish? The murderer is gone. But their victims are also gone. And they're not coming back. And the familes that lost their loved ones? They will never feel any kind of lasting solace just from seeing the murderer get executed. To think that that would make the families feel any better is an insult to the family's love for those they have lost. Finally, it is certainly no deterent at all. Capital punishment in its current form has legally been going in the States for roughly 30 years(I think) and murder rates haven't gone down enough to suggest that capital punishment deters anything.

Capital punishment accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want the murderer to be punished, you should know that the worst punishment is sitting in prison for the rest of their life. You think it's unfair that they get to sit in prison and have food delivered to them and be able to watch TV and so on and so forth, while the dead are still dead, but what you're missing is that the prisoner has lost the most valuable thing there is to lose within life: their freedom. Food, TV, and a bed do little to comfort someone who has no freedom. I believe that.

But guess what? That's all a moot point, because the point of prison is not to punish the prisoner. The point of prison is to make sure that the prisoner is no longer allowed to take part in or be a part in society anymore. And that's really all I care about. As long as the murder is no longer a part of my society, I couldn't care any less what they do behind the bars in their orange jumpsuits. They can served gourmet meals and have unlimited access to cable television and ping-pong tables and pool tables for all I care. As long as they can't re-enter society, prison has served its purpose. Of course, I would like to see this practice of giving someone a life sentence, letting them out on 'good behavior' after five years, and never making them come back, be abolished. It's crap. If you get a life sentence, it's a life sentence. That's a different issue though.

There is a greater, overriding philosophical arguement against capital punishment that sort of umbrellas everything I've already said. It is the epitomy of hypocrisy. Murder is murder is murder. Capital punishment is murder. People will argue that this form of human extermination helps society. But does it really? No. People commit murder for all sorts of twisted reasons. But the thing is, is that in their minds, they've already justified what they're doing. Somewhere, sometime in life, they experienced something(or multiple things) that have put it in their head that it is ok to kill their victim for this reason or that. They were not born thinking that. Society, whether it be their family/friends or the outisde society, has formed every belief, opinion, mindset, justification that we have in our minds. And if that society has put in our minds a belief, opinion, mindset, and/or justification that makes anyone think mudering victim x is ok, then society has flaws that need to be fixed. That said, we, as society, can either keep shovling water out of the metaphorical boat - that is, keep executing murders to rid society of them - or we can plug up the hole in the metaphorical boat - that is, try to fix society's problems so that there aren't so many people who think it IS ok to murder victim x for whatever reason. I, for one, think society needs to be plugged up rather than filtered.

I have, in this post, outlined a litany of human variables that can change how you see this issue. And perhaps that makes the greatest point of all. We, NONE of us, can afford to look at in issue like this in black and white. If you do, you are missing the point by tragic margins. They grey area is where all those variables lie. The grey area is where truth lies. LIFE is one big grey area. We have to be able to see the grey area, because if we don't, we only see things in terms of good and bad, and we will stop at nothing to get rid of the bad. If we just keep killing the 'bad' because it's how the system works, and it becomes rote, we will soon stop looking at the 'bad' as human beings, and only as machines. When that happens, we will have lost site of the fact that even human beings who do the most messed up of things are still human beings, and when we lose site of that, we have lost site of ourselves as well. That is the heart of the meaning of Ghandi's famous quote. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

As for abortion, it's a different issue altogether. I won't discuss it here.
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:47 PM   #95
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For th record, Jesus didn't say "eye for an eye". He said "turn the other cheek.

To BonoVoxSupastar I'm just curious. What is your vision of the "scary" world that would come into being with the so-called "religious right" in power? There may be some legitimate issues but I've never had this explained to me.
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:24 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

That's always a great trick. Look over here don't pay attention to what's in this hand. Sleight of hand will allow the others to just grow scarier and scarier.

But you just keep focusing on those that don't belong to your faith.
I'm focusing on those that might be a danger my very existence.

It's called priorities, you call it sleight-of-hand, so be it.

You're going after the cockroach, and ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:26 PM   #97
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Originally posted by namkcuR
Too much religious scripture debate here. Capital punishment is not a religious issue. Yes, I know Jesus said 'eye for an eye' and all that, but I don't care. This is not a religious issue. This is a human issue.

I know there are people, like U2Kitten, who simply cannot fathom why people who have committed premeditated murder should be allowed to live anymore. People who feel like anyone who would commit such a crime should be punished.

But therein lies the first question: What does punishment accomplish? The murderer is gone. But their victims are also gone. And they're not coming back. And the familes that lost their loved ones? They will never feel any kind of lasting solace just from seeing the murderer get executed. To think that that would make the families feel any better is an insult to the family's love for those they have lost. Finally, it is certainly no deterent at all. Capital punishment in its current form has legally been going in the States for roughly 30 years(I think) and murder rates haven't gone down enough to suggest that capital punishment deters anything.

Capital punishment accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want the murderer to be punished, you should know that the worst punishment is sitting in prison for the rest of their life. You think it's unfair that they get to sit in prison and have food delivered to them and be able to watch TV and so on and so forth, while the dead are still dead, but what you're missing is that the prisoner has lost the most valuable thing there is to lose within life: their freedom. Food, TV, and a bed do little to comfort someone who has no freedom. I believe that.

But guess what? That's all a moot point, because the point of prison is not to punish the prisoner. The point of prison is to make sure that the prisoner is no longer allowed to take part in or be a part in society anymore. And that's really all I care about. As long as the murder is no longer a part of my society, I couldn't care any less what they do behind the bars in their orange jumpsuits. They can served gourmet meals and have unlimited access to cable television and ping-pong tables and pool tables for all I care. As long as they can't re-enter society, prison has served its purpose. Of course, I would like to see this practice of giving someone a life sentence, letting them out on 'good behavior' after five years, and never making them come back, be abolished. It's crap. If you get a life sentence, it's a life sentence. That's a different issue though.

There is a greater, overriding philosophical arguement against capital punishment that sort of umbrellas everything I've already said. It is the epitomy of hypocrisy. Murder is murder is murder. Capital punishment is murder. People will argue that this form of human extermination helps society. But does it really? No. People commit murder for all sorts of twisted reasons. But the thing is, is that in their minds, they've already justified what they're doing. Somewhere, sometime in life, they experienced something(or multiple things) that have put it in their head that it is ok to kill their victim for this reason or that. They were not born thinking that. Society, whether it be their family/friends or the outisde society, has formed every belief, opinion, mindset, justification that we have in our minds. And if that society has put in our minds a belief, opinion, mindset, and/or justification that makes anyone think mudering victim x is ok, then society has flaws that need to be fixed. That said, we, as society, can either keep shovling water out of the metaphorical boat - that is, keep executing murders to rid society of them - or we can plug up the hole in the metaphorical boat - that is, try to fix society's problems so that there aren't so many people who think it IS ok to murder victim x for whatever reason. I, for one, think society needs to be plugged up rather than filtered.

I have, in this post, outlined a litany of human variables that can change how you see this issue. And perhaps that makes the greatest point of all. We, NONE of us, can afford to look at in issue like this in black and white. If you do, you are missing the point by tragic margins. They grey area is where all those variables lie. The grey area is where truth lies. LIFE is one big grey area. We have to be able to see the grey area, because if we don't, we only see things in terms of good and bad, and we will stop at nothing to get rid of the bad. If we just keep killing the 'bad' because it's how the system works, and it becomes rote, we will soon stop looking at the 'bad' as human beings, and only as machines. When that happens, we will have lost site of the fact that even human beings who do the most messed up of things are still human beings, and when we lose site of that, we have lost site of ourselves as well. That is the heart of the meaning of Ghandi's famous quote. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

As for abortion, it's a different issue altogether. I won't discuss it here.
What you said.
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Old 01-16-2005, 03:27 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Yes but people still to this day even in this forum quote OT all the time to support their views. It's scary.
That is the only justifcation for their ideas - "read the Lord's word to fit my morals.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:47 PM   #99
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Originally posted by cardosino


I'm focusing on those that might be a danger my very existence.

It's called priorities, you call it sleight-of-hand, so be it.

You're going after the cockroach, and ignoring the elephant in the room.
When have you seen me ignore any of them. It's just this thread focused on one while you tried to divert the focus. I focus on them all.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:53 PM   #100
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Originally posted by drhark

To BonoVoxSupastar I'm just curious. What is your vision of the "scary" world that would come into being with the so-called "religious right" in power? There may be some legitimate issues but I've never had this explained to me.
Separation of church and state would be destroyed(one of the scariest). Homosexuals placed back in the closet. FCC would go out of control. Abstinence only sex programs would send this world into ignorance. Death penalty would be the rise. I won't get into some of the others but basically your idea of freedom would be compromised.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:24 PM   #101
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


When have you seen me ignore any of them. It's just this thread focused on one while you tried to divert the focus. I focus on them all.
I'd focus on all of them if they were all of equal danger to my existence.

The thread migrated into "the dangers of fundemantism", I was just adding to it
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:32 PM   #102
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Separation of church and state would be destroyed(one of the scariest). Homosexuals placed back in the closet. FCC would go out of control. Abstinence only sex programs would send this world into ignorance. Death penalty would be the rise. I won't get into some of the others but basically your idea of freedom would be compromised.
Slight exaggeration, we don't believe in separating church and state, we just believe that it's true intention should be recognized. Therefore, a state religion cannot be forced upon you. No presidential candidate in 2004 said that we can't allow room for civil unions. In fact, both opposed giving the marriage title, but supported civil unions. The FCC... this is kind of odd to me how so many liberals are up defending Colin Powell saying what a great guy he is and all (and he is a great guy, a smart one for sure), but yet his son is running the FCC and that's a whole different story. I don't think the FCC has gone out of control, we must acknowledge all forms of censorship and realize that some things are meant to be censored, especially racial slurs on the Howard Stern show (although from what I heard, Howard didn't personally use it for their write up, a caller did). TV has been censored for years, and if you don't like censorship, the porno shop isn't too far away. Sure, some do not realize that everyone needs to be taught sex ed and how to use protection, but there are worse problems in the world today. I will agree that the death penalty should be minimized, maybe even eliminated. I will say this, if your idea of freedom is to screw your life up as much as possible, then yes, your idea of freedom will probably be compromised. There's no need to legalize harmful drugs and prostitution just because "it works" in a certain socialized country.
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Old 01-16-2005, 11:07 PM   #103
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Slight exaggeration, we don't believe in separating church and state, we just believe that it's true intention should be recognized. Therefore, a state religion cannot be forced upon you. No presidential candidate in 2004 said that we can't allow room for civil unions. In fact, both opposed giving the marriage title, but supported civil unions. The FCC... this is kind of odd to me how so many liberals are up defending Colin Powell saying what a great guy he is and all (and he is a great guy, a smart one for sure), but yet his son is running the FCC and that's a whole different story. I don't think the FCC has gone out of control, we must acknowledge all forms of censorship and realize that some things are meant to be censored, especially racial slurs on the Howard Stern show (although from what I heard, Howard didn't personally use it for their write up, a caller did). TV has been censored for years, and if you don't like censorship, the porno shop isn't too far away. Sure, some do not realize that everyone needs to be taught sex ed and how to use protection, but there are worse problems in the world today. I will agree that the death penalty should be minimized, maybe even eliminated. I will say this, if your idea of freedom is to screw your life up as much as possible, then yes, your idea of freedom will probably be compromised. There's no need to legalize harmful drugs and prostitution just because "it works" in a certain socialized country.
Not surprisingly I disagree with just about everything you say.
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Old 01-17-2005, 06:19 AM   #104
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Slight exaggeration, we don't believe in separating church and state, we just believe that it's true intention should be recognized. Therefore, a state religion cannot be forced upon you.
Not an exaggeration at all. When you talk about making a ban on gay marriage as an ammendment to the constitution you are enforcing your religious views on this country. There is no reason except religious for this ban.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
The FCC... this is kind of odd to me how so many liberals are up defending Colin Powell saying what a great guy he is and all (and he is a great guy, a smart one for sure), but yet his son is running the FCC and that's a whole different story. I don't think the FCC has gone out of control, we must acknowledge all forms of censorship and realize that some things are meant to be censored, especially racial slurs on the Howard Stern show (although from what I heard, Howard didn't personally use it for their write up, a caller did). TV has been censored for years, and if you don't like censorship, the porno shop isn't too far away.[/B]
They're two seperate people. The problem with the FCC is not so much the censorship, but the fact of how it selectively goes after certain individuals. We've had whole threads dedicated to it, so I won't go too deep into it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Sure, some do not realize that everyone needs to be taught sex ed and how to use protection, but there are worse problems in the world today.[/B]
This couldn't be more wrong. There's nothing worse than sending a generation out on it's own without the knowledge it needs to survive and keep healthy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I will agree that the death penalty should be minimized, maybe even eliminated. I will say this, if your idea of freedom is to screw your life up as much as possible, then yes, your idea of freedom will probably be compromised. There's no need to legalize harmful drugs and prostitution just because "it works" in a certain socialized country. [/B]
Sometimes I wonder where you come up with this crap. Who said anything about screwing up peoples lives, legal drugs, or prostitution?
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Old 01-17-2005, 09:36 AM   #105
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I was taught the New Testament was the new deal. The Old Testament is the Word of God and is to be studied but the New Testament is the overriding authority when there is conflict. Jesus' and the apostles teachings were often in conflict with the Old Testament
This is an oversimplification of Scripture. The OT is there for a reason and it applies to us today. Read through Romans (chapters 5 and 6) for more specific language on the application of the OT today.

Face it. It is not a matter if the OT really applies and in what degree. The Bible is viewed as everything from God's inherent Word, to a collection of good stories, to an outright fabrication to be disregarded. Quote the OT and you are dispised. Quote an epistle, and you are disregarded as only espousing the view of a man.
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