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Old 01-14-2005, 09:33 AM   #31
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U2 Kitten, I understand your feelings, believe me. I respect them too. I can tell you have a good heart. First of all, there is no verse in the Bible that says anything about child killing. Secondly, murder is a forgivable sin! The Apostle Paul murdered someone. Many people that God used did. Murder, having an abortion, adultery, divorce, etc. are all forgivable. In fact, my wife had an abortion before I met her. However, she's asked for forgiveness and Christ has cleansed her of that, and has helped her get over the grief and depression she experienced afterward. She now helps other women who are considering abortion. God is using her! Her doctor also told her she wouldn't be able to have children because of her abortion and how it screwed her up. But we have two boys!! I see her growing more in Christ every day and it makes me love her, and him, more at the same time.
To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or to say that Christ and his work are satanic and truly mean it, are unforgivable. To say no to God with all your heart, not just being angry with him or doubting him, but knowing he exists and totally going against him is unforgivable. A sin is just going against God's commands, but the ultimate sin is not accepting forgiveness and continuing in a life that goes against his plan for you. It's actually pretty hard to commit the ultimate sin. We're talking a black heart here.
Anyone who is genuinely concerned that they've committed the unforgivable sin hasn't done so.
However, if you've murdered someone, no matter how bad it was, if you genuinely ask Christ for forgiveness, ask him into your heart and confess him as your Lord, you're forgiven! Pretty powerful huh? You will most likely have to pay any penalty here on Earth, but through God's grace given to us by his son's death on the cross, we can enter into heaven despite our sin. God meets us where we're at as long as we call out to him. He knows we can change. He built us that way! As far as being a deterrent, it's been proven to have no effect. If someone's going to kill, they're already thinking they're going to get away with it. Plus, it's not really fair to compare homeless people with inmates who've murdered. They're two separate problems. Does killing murderers equate to food and shelter for the homeless? Nope. In fact, like I said earlier, there are hundreds of thousands of tax dollars wasted with all the appeals after some one is sentenced to death. Those dollars could instead be used to house and feed the homeless if there were no death penalty.
I was in Amnesty International when I was at K-State. We brought in a woman whose pregnant sister and brother-in-law were murdered by some punk kid. Although they were brutally murdered, she's firmly against the death penalty, and for many of the reasons I've already posted. The main on of which was she didn't want her sister's life to be remembered by another death. Also, she said she couldn't find it in her heart to forgive the person, and then allow him to die. Forgiveness, she said, is what has set her free. Not another death.
To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or to say that Christ and his work are satanic and truly mean it, are unforgivable. To say no to God with all your heart, not just being angry with him or doubting him, but knowing he exists and totally going against him are unforgivable. A sin is just going against God's commands, but the ultimate sin is not accepting forgiveness and continuing in a life that goes against his plan for you.
Anyone who is geniunley concerned that they've committed the unforgivable sin hasn't done so.
However, if you've murdered someone, no matter how bad it was, if you genuinley ask Christ for forgiveness, ask him into your heart and confess him as your Lord, you're forgiven! Pretty powerful huh? You will most likely have to pay any penalty here on Earth, but through God's grace given to us by his son's death on the cross, we can enter into heaven despite our sin. God meets us where we're at as long as we call out to him. He knows we can change. He built us that way! As far as being a deterent, it's been proven to have no effect. If someone's going to kill, they're already thinking they're going to get away with it. Plus, it's not really fair to compare homeless people with inmates who've murdered. They're two seperate problems. Does killing murderers equate to food and shelter for the homeless? Nope. In fact, like I said earlier, there are hundreds of thousands of tax dollars wasted with all the appeals after some one is sentenced to death. Those dollars could instead be used to house and feed the homeless if there were no death penalty.
I was in Amnesty International when I was at K-State. We brought in a woman whose pregnant sister and brother-in-law were murdered by some punk kid. Although they were brutally murdered, she's firmly against the death penalty, and for many of the reasons I've already posted. The main on of which was she didn't want her sister's life to be remembered by another death. Also, she said she couldn't find it in her heart to forgive the person, and then allow him to die. Forgiveness, she said, is what has set her free. Not another death.
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Old 01-14-2005, 09:46 AM   #32
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Thanks for sharing all that with us, coemgen. Very powerful.
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Old 01-14-2005, 09:52 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I am also going to try to hold my temper and ask why there is so much sympathy for the murderer and none for the victims, even the ones in the true stories I described? Something is very very wrong here.



What a sick and twisted world.
I have no sympathy for murders and much much sympathy for the victims and their families, but I believe the death penalty is wrong.

First, I think it would be easier for the murderer to die rather than spend their life in jail. Second, the system can be flawed and people go to prison for crimes they didn't commit. It is wrong to put to death someone that was later proven innocent.

The thing that really bothers me is when the system would allow anyone that committed a hideous crime to be up for parole.
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Old 01-14-2005, 09:52 AM   #34
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Ok, I just noticed my cut and paste problem. Sorry about that guys.
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:33 PM   #35
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I'm not comfortable with the idea of executing a possibly innocent person. I'm also not comfortable with sending a possibly innocent person to prison for life. Our justice system isn't perfect. Supposedly it costs more to the taxpayers to execute a prisoner than to keep him or her alive. But should cost be a consideration when you're dealing with matters of life and death? Discuss. I don't have a firm opinion on capital punishment, a lot of questions remain. I don't take issue with either side.

I do know that Jesus doesn't have much to do with the argument. Jesus sought to affect human hearts and souls, not government policy. Jesus actually did get the death penalty, which was allowed for in His faith, Judaism. He happened to be innocent (well, maybe not. To those who didn't believe He was the Son of God, He was commiting blasphemy), so I'm sure He had a problem with the charges against Him, but he forgave those who killed Him.
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:41 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


Death Penalty has been tried and doesn't work as a deterent

Fact
This statement is unprovable and cannot be stated as fact. Evidence against this statement can be found in Middle Eastern dictatorships where corporal punishment is inflicted and the crime rates are very low
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:43 PM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Our justice system is ran by humans therefore flawed. Therefore the possibility of convicting the wrong person exists. Therefore I don't believe in it.
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


This statement is unprovable and cannot be stated as fact. Evidence against this statement can be found in Middle Eastern dictatorships where corporal punishment is inflicted and the crime rates are very low
The murder statistics in States with the death penalty will attest to the effectiveness of the death penalty.

Strict gun control is, IMHO, a more effective method to reduce th ehomocide rates.

Corporal punishment is not the same as Capital punishment, and of course comparing an middle-Eastern dictatorship to a Western democracy is hardly comparing apples to oranges. One isn't even fruit.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:00 PM   #39
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Just pointing out that your statement is pretty darn hard to prove because there are too many variables to provide for an accurate study. So it is not a Fact. We can't just be throwing that word around.

Strict gun control is strictly prohibited by the clear language of the Second Amendment. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Clear as day. This can be overturned in Congress if the people so desire.

OK forget I said "corporal". Change to "Capital". Statement is still true.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
I believe in the context that this was meant as a prediction, not a command.

Jesus taught extensively about forgiveness, and cautioned against revenge.

I don't believe for one second that Jesus would be pro-revenge and pro-institutionalized murder, but that's me.

God also taught that the penalty for murder is death. I understand it is the only law that is mentioned in all five books of the Pentatuch. Jesus merely acknowledges the penalty.

Jesus never suggested that there should be no consequences to our behavior.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:19 PM   #41
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drhark, it turns out there is evidence against the DP as a deterrent.

From Amnest International's Web site:
A New York Times survey, released in September 2000, found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 percent to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.
FBI data showed that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average.
The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of killers acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, or who are in the grip of fear or rage, or who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime. Likewise, children and young people are less likely to reflect upon or genuinely comprehend the consequences of their actions.
Recent studies cast further doubt that the death penalty has any deterrent effect. Rather, these studies found support for the theory that the death penalty has a brutalizing effect.
The Deterrent Effect of the Death Penalty

An examination of homicides in Los Angeles before and after the execution of Robert Harris in 1992, California’s first execution in 25 years, revealed slight increases in homicides during the eight months following Harris’ execution.
A comparison of murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder (felony-murder; stranger robbery-related murder; stranger non-felony murder; argument-related murder) in Oklahoma between 1989 and 1991 uncovered no evidence of a deterrent effect. Researchers did find a significant increase in stranger killings (both felony and non-felony) after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
Researchers Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides in 293 counties that were paired based on factors such as geographic location and demographic and economic variables. The pairs shared a contiguous border, but differed on use of capital punishment. The authors found no support for a deterrent effect. They did find higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties.

Also, as a Christian, I try to see that Jesus has everything to do with the decisions I make, but that's just me.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:39 PM   #42
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I don't doubt there's evidence for and against. I'm not going to argue that. I'm saying Facts are facts, and your theory is simply not fact. The opposing theory is not fact either. That's one of the reasons why we still have the debate.
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Old 01-14-2005, 01:54 PM   #43
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The argument of the thread though is for or against the DP. There's heavy evidence that it's not a deterrent. That's a point against it in my mind. Just because it's not a "fact" doesn't mean it doesn't help build a case against the DP.
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Old 01-14-2005, 02:03 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Just pointing out that your statement is pretty darn hard to prove because there are too many variables to provide for an accurate study. So it is not a Fact.


It's fact where I live, the United States, which is what we are discussing here.

Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
We can't just be throwing that word around.

I throw it around knowing it to be correct. In the Us, the Death Penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime. FACT. Go ahead and prove me wrong, I'm a big man, I can take it when I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

Strict gun control is strictly prohibited by the clear language of the Second Amendment. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Clear as day.

It is clear, so why ignore it ? Here, let me fix it for you:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "

Last I checked, the Gang bangers in LA weren't part of a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.
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Old 01-14-2005, 02:06 PM   #45
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by nbcrusader


God also taught that the penalty for murder is death. I understand it is the only law that is mentioned in all five books of the Pentatuch. Jesus merely acknowledges the penalty.

Jesus never suggested that there should be no consequences to our behavior.
[/QUOTE

I'm not well-armed enough to go toe-to-toe on scripture, but given the nature of Jesus as I know it, I doubt he would approve of th edeath penalty, in fact i'd be more inclined to believe he'd think a heinous abomination. there's a reason most Christian-based churches are actually against it.

If you have pre-death penalty scripture and Jesus's condoning of such, I'd be honestly interested to see it.
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