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Old 01-17-2005, 12:31 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


labeling people "hate mongers" and "racist" is a tactic of the left
that serves no purpose in the debate
But labeling people sinners and abominations serves a purpose? Quit pointing fingers. Both sides do it, quit trying to act like one doesn't.
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Old 01-17-2005, 12:43 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


And what did Jesus do to the soldier missing an ear?

Self defense and capital punishment are two entirely different things.
He healed it.

Yes they are entirely two different things which is why I don't think people should use the "turning of the other cheek" argument to make their case against the death penalty.

Also, I said this is probably better suited for another thread
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Old 01-17-2005, 12:56 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But labeling people sinners and abominations serves a purpose? Quit pointing fingers. Both sides do it, quit trying to act like one doesn't.
I'm making a distinction between personal beliefs and the national political debate. For instance, on the gay marriage debate, I personally hear "hate monger" much more than I hear "sinner."

Just from my personal experience.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:10 PM   #139
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Why do you guys insist on making this a religious/political debate? It's neither, this is a HUMAN debate. I believe capital punishment is wrong, and the reasons have nothing to do with religion or politics. This debate is ALL about the imperfections of human beings, whether it be the murderer, the legal system, or the outsiders(us) judging whether or not it's right or not. My explanations for my beliefs are in my earlier post in this thread, which apparently very few people took the time to read.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:13 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
Why do you guys insist on making this a religious/political debate? It's neither, this is a HUMAN debate. I believe capital punishment is wrong, and the reasons have nothing to do with religion or politics. This debate is ALL about the imperfections of human beings, whether it be the murderer, the legal system, or the outsiders(us) judging whether or not it's right or not. My explanations for my beliefs are in my earlier post in this thread, which apparently very few people took the time to read.
But see the thing that determines right or wrong is rooted in morality which is for the most part rooted in religion (any of them).

Edited to add this, cause I'm a numbskull for not finishing my response...

Laws are based on religion or have been anyway here in the States. Laws are enforced by the government which of course, is a political entity.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:18 PM   #141
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This is off topic but could apply to this or other issues. I'm trying to get the word "hate" out of the discourse.

Say a someone (a) disagrees with a behavior or belief of another person (b). Then (b) decides he's going to form a political group (B) with others who share the same behavior or belief to acquire political power and shape society according to those views that (a) opposes. Then (a) forms their group (A) to counteract the political power of (B) and a national debate is held. It's a big political game.,Where does the "hate" come into play?
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:20 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
This is off topic but could apply to this or other issues. I'm trying to get the word "hate" out of the discourse.

Say a someone (a) disagrees with a behavior or belief of another person (b). Then (b) decides he's going to form a political group (B) with others who share the same behavior or belief to acquire political power and shape society according to those views that (a) opposes. Then (a) forms their group (A) to counteract the political power of (B) and a national debate is held. It's a big political game.,Where does the "hate" come into play?
Oh thats a great question but I would suggest starting a whole new thread for it... would lead to great discussion.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:21 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


I'm making a distinction between personal beliefs and the national political debate. For instance, on the gay marriage debate, I personally hear "hate monger" much more than I hear "sinner."

Just from my personal experience.
Um, the whole basis behind banning gay marriage is many interpret the Bible to say homosexuals are sinners.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:22 PM   #144
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OK
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:00 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic


But see the thing that determines right or wrong is rooted in morality which is for the most part rooted in religion (any of them).

Edited to add this, cause I'm a numbskull for not finishing my response...

Laws are based on religion or have been anyway here in the States. Laws are enforced by the government which of course, is a political entity.

People can and do lose their religion


most people do not lose their sense of understanding right and wrong


Do you think that people would go around believing it is fine to kill people willy/ nilly

if the 10 commandments did not exist?
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:14 PM   #146
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A lot of religious tenets possess an inherent wisdom which, when stripped of their religious origin, still hold true and valuable to society.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:27 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic




Laws are based on religion or have been anyway here in the States.

This is often repeated but not true.


I just read the "Law of the Land"

The Constitution and all the amendments
there is no mention God directly or indirectly.

Only the 1st amendment mentions religion.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:57 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep



People can and do lose their religion


most people do not lose their sense of understanding right and wrong


Do you think that people would go around believing it is fine to kill people willy/ nilly

if the 10 commandments did not exist?
No not at all. I don't know how you came to this conclusion. My response was based on the questions asked. Why is the death penealty an issue of politics/religion. I believe that there is an inate knowledge of right and wrong which everyone posesses, which is to do with... well I won't go into that.

I agree people can lose their religion in terms of someone saying I was raised a Catholic but I am not anymore (for example) but because of the inate knowledge, people will more often than not still know what is right or wrong. However, it does not explain why cultures (not so much modern ones) without certain religions have no problem with human sacrifice etc.

But at any rate ... my initial post to which you responded was meant to come across as this: The issue is a political one and a religious one because the idea of the death penalty is rooted in religious beliefs. That belief was made into law. I really don't see how you could say it isn't?

If it is not rooted in a religious belief here in the States, tell me what the origin is? If I am wrong that is fine, I just have never read or heard otherwise. Just fill me in...
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Old 01-17-2005, 03:08 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Not an exaggeration at all. When you talk about making a ban on gay marriage as an ammendment to the constitution you are enforcing your religious views on this country. There is no reason except religious for this ban.
And it didn't pass, and it's off the table for now.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
This couldn't be more wrong. There's nothing worse than sending a generation out on it's own without the knowledge it needs to survive and keep healthy.
I don't support abstinence only, but I think that abstinence should be encouraged. Of course there will be those who won't choose abstinence, and protection should be taught, but taken note that it is NOT a guarantee. Nothing worse? Surely life and death issues oughta be more important.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Sometimes I wonder where you come up with this crap. Who said anything about screwing up peoples lives, legal drugs, or prostitution?
I have used prostitution (and I wish I was exaggerating, but some forumers actually believe it should be legalized) to show where the whole "pro-choice" line will lead you. I'm not saying you're for it, but things are taken to extremes. Civil rights was a great movement, but it has been distorted into OJ getting off scott free, thanks to his numerous scumbag lawyers, as well as affirmative action. Women's suffrage was a great historical movement, and the terminology has been abused by those who push for abortion and prostitution.

Basically my interpretation of the liberal agenda: anything goes, legalize everything, after all, life has no meaning. And if anyone disagrees with our agenda, we label them bigots, homophobes, and racists. We'll abuse freedom of speech as much as possible, and we'll cry censorship when it offends people.
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Old 01-17-2005, 03:10 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
A lot of religious tenets possess an inherent wisdom which, when stripped of their religious origin, still hold true and valuable to society.
Ok well I guess I will go into it....

I totally agree that if you take the religion out of morality, morality will still exisit. That is to do with (in my opinion) man having both the knowledge of good and evil. That is all I will say on the matter because I do not want to be accused of turning this into "another Bible thread" because that is not my intent.

With my initial response I sort of said how I viewed it and left my faith out of it. I tried to keep it as secular as I could, and with my not being a secularist that can be tricky.
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