do you love your country?

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Irvine511

Irvine511

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i stumbled across this today and it gave me pause:

[q]Whether in the name of some ideology, or some image of national purity or dominance, or in the name of religion, or simply to plunder, states have time and again massacred their own people, or conscripted their own people and flung them at others to kill and be killed. The number of human lives extinguished by states, and in the name of states, well exceeds a hundred million.

Learn this history and you will see the price patriotism exacts. For many reasons, I feel fortunate to have been born in the United States, but I don’t love my country. It has no love for any of us. A cold, manipulative, object of affection, the state fans patriotism, then asks those who love it deeply to prove their love by dying or sacrificing their limbs for it.

It will not happen in my lifetime, but I look forward to the day when states are no more. As difficult as it is to imagine what a political future without states might look like, the state system is a relatively recent innovation in human history and there is no reason to think we will be burdened with states forever. [/q]

and i don't mean like, or enjoy, or feel lucky to be a citizen. i mean do you love your country, in a manner similar to the way you might love another person, ie, be willing to die for it.

does your country love you? how does it show that love? can you feel it, if it does exist? countries are willing to kill for their citizens -- would your mother kill others if she believed it would protect your safety?
 
I don't love my country, and it has never shown me that it loves me.
I'm glad living here as it's giving me some safety, education and support. But I wouldn't mind living in another country, either. I've long dreamt of living in Australia, and I'm still planning on going abroad. That's why I study Economics in English and not in German.

I don't have any special feelings for my country. On the other hand, I'm feeling good, or happy, some might call it proud, when I read about some important invention or discovery by a German, or when we are winning in some sports or are on top in general.
But it's not too important to me.

I'm definitely not loving it.
 
"Used to love my country
used to be so young
Used to believe that life was
the best song ever sung
I would have died for my country
in 1945
But now only one thing remains
but now only one thing remains
But now only one thing remains
but now only one thing remains
The brute will to survive!"

Excerpt "Red Army Blues" copyright the Waterboys
 
Vincent Vega said:
I don't love my country, and it has never shown me that it loves me.
I'm glad living here as it's giving me some safety, education and support. But I wouldn't mind living in another country, either. I've long dreamt of living in Australia, and I'm still planning on going abroad. That's why I study Economics in English and not in German.

I don't have any special feelings for my country. On the other hand, I'm feeling good, or happy, some might call it proud, when I read about some important invention or discovery by a German, or when we are winning in some sports or are on top in general.
But it's not too important to me.

I'm definitely not loving it.
Click to expand...

You live in one of the best cities in the world, but I suppose there's always a sense in which, to use an Irish saying, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
 
Well, that's right, I'm happy to have moved to Berlin. I used to live way up north, which is nice being a tourist, but boring living there.

Berlin is a great city, indeed, and I love to go around visiting places of history, or just relax in the parks or at the lake. I'm pretty new here myself and often going around with my camera feeling like a tourist.

But I also love other parts of the world and want to visit them, either.
 
but Germany would have other Germans die to protect you Vincent. and Ireland would have other Irish die to protect you, FG.

is that not love?

if not, what is it?
 
I think I live in one of the better countries in the world, and having lived in 4 different ones, I have some sense of comparison. It treats me very well and has afforded me some great opportunities. You can have a very good life here, if you are willing to seize those opportunities in a positive way.

That said, I'm not dying for this country nor any other one. It's probably selfish, but I don't feel a deep, abiding sense of patriotism towards any nation, and I could probably pick up and go and move again. Then again, I feel like I don't have the same roots that most people do, given my general hobo lifestyle.
 
I like living in Australia and I know it affords me a lifestyle I couldn't have elsewhere in the world. I am the child of migrants to this country so I have affection for the country my parents came from, not that I'd live there though. I don't LOVE Australia however, I don't love any country.

The only time I felt any kind of patriotism was when Australia qualified for the World Cup, otherwise I don't support any sports team or get involved in any kind of flag waving. All that "Aussie, aussie, aussie, oi, oi, oi' stuff makes me want to throw up. :madspit:
 
I'm not sure I find the analogy to love between two persons fully convincing--I do love my country in the sense that I feel deep attachment, affection, and loyalty towards this familiar social and cultural world (which is not unlike loving a person), and yes, those are the kinds of sentiments that might make me or others willing to kill and be killed were it under some direct external threat...but still, to the extent that I might benefit from the willingness of other Americans to do that, it's not as if they'd do it out of love for me personally. In that sense it's a quite different sort of trust than one might feel in a parent, friend or partner who loves you.

The linked text basically reads to me like so much fatalistic grumbling about the ability of the powerful to mobilize others to serve their bidding. But that phenomenon long preceded the rise of 'the state' as we know it, and if predictions about the inevitable end of 'the state' come true, it will long outlive it too.

As far as feelings towards the prospect of living anywhere else, in the end I would rather live here than anywhere I've visited. There are a few other countries where I think I could live quite happily and without any longterm, deep-seated feelings of melancholy or loneliness over the change, but not many.

I have known a few people, I'm sure most of us have, who grew up in one country, at some point went to some other on a visit, immediately felt "This is it! I've found my home!" and went on to settle there. I can't relate to that, though I don't in any way see it as a kind of "moral" decision (and in my experience people who've done it don't either). Then there are some Americans whose primary reason for loving their country is the "idea" of it, faith in the "project" so to speak--the ideals of the Constitution and so on. I do share that to a point, some of that kind of feeling is bound up in my "love" for it; but personally, if I'm being honest about it, I think the kinds of emotions I mentioned in the first sentence of this post are really the primary ones for me. People who go on about "This is the greatest country in the world! There is no place better!", that I don't understand at all, and frankly I find it silly. Then there are a few people--sula's described something like this before I know--who, typically because of a very particular and rather unusual kind of upbringing, truly feel that they could be "at home" almost anywhere (and yet never feel "fully" at home anywhere at the same time). I can't really relate to that either, but as with the type of person who discovers their "true" home through what started out as a visit, I'd imagine it isn't in any meaningful way a kind of "moral" choice. Probably in a sense none of these are really moral decisions.
 
I just watched Aeon Flux which was filmed in Berlin. The architecture is amazing. Just the most incredible buildings and it's like the animal shelter and the crematorium!
 
blueeyedgirl said:
All that "Aussie, aussie, aussie, oi, oi, oi' stuff makes me want to throw up. :madspit:
Click to expand...

I have never understood the sense in that chant anyway. I remember very vividly when I was first exposed to it. I hadn't been in Australia long, and I was already copping shit at school, where I was my class's token Kiwi. I went on my year level's annual camp, and when we arrived, we had this introductory assembly. At the end, the camp operators led us in a chant of "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi" and I was so incredibly baffled. I had no idea what was going on; all I knew was that as a foreigner, I was no part of it. I felt incredibly excluded.

Now do you see why I really hate Aussie sports teams? :wink:

To respond to the original topic, no, I do not love my country. I cannot feel patriotism for something so artificial. However, I would say that I am very proud of New Zealanders - as a group, Kiwis have certainly punched well above their weight, and the society is generally one of the world's most forward-thinking, progressive, and tolerant. I can feel a fondness for people, and I also rather like the scenery. But the artificial state? Certainly not.
 
Yes and no. Community, culture, shared experiences etc. Not borders and land or whatever. I love the country I live in, a lot, but you will never get me to, for example, fight a war under something as simplistically stupid as "because your country called" or whatever. A direct defence of that community and culture is different, of course, but blind patriotism/nationalism, a commitment to a border or flag over anything else is at the very least completely irrelevant, at worst repulsively wrong.

I actually had this very argument just the other night - drunkenly - with a friend after seeing an army recruitment ad. The argument was based around that very notion ("if your country called") versus the current war we're in (Iraq). He is as dead against our involvement in Iraq and always has been, but said "if his country called" he'd go, because quite simply, that's what you have to do. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. And I'd argue against the idea, he'd completely agree with me on every point, but still say he'd go because that's what you have to do.
 
hmm, I love being Irish rather than say I love the state of Ireland. I also love the landscape of Ireland and in general the people.

I think my sense nationalism is born from the situation here in Northern Ireland. West Belfast is as nationalist as it gets. But in truth I know the people in the Republic generally aren't that fussed about up here. I know my nationalism is completly fabricated by the community where I grew up in. I obviously have no experience of when Ireland was united, yet I want the 'Brits out' so to speak. It is something that I find extremely hard to shake off, it almost feels hardwired....it actually feels much stronger than even when I was a fervent Catholic, much stronger feeling than any religious sense, it feels freaky when I put it into those terms.

Problem is I am not sure what to actually think about it, whether it is bad or not, it informs a range of political views I hold, but doesn't harm anyone else or me, but I can't think of any benefits of it other than identifying me with a particular community.

States though don't kill people, the people in charge of them do, I don't think there will be a sudden decline in the loss of human life when states cease to be. Aren't we in the process of becoming rather than nation-states, market-states? Powerful trading blocs ie North America vs EU vs ahh is there a Southeast Asia trading bloc or am I imagining it?...just checked there is ASEAN.
 
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Irvine511 said:
but Germany would have other Germans die to protect you Vincent. and Ireland would have other Irish die to protect you, FG.

is that not love?

if not, what is it?
Click to expand...

I was willing to do my army services and even agree on going abroad (Afghanistan, Kosovo...).
History has taught me that sometimes you have to stand up against your own country in order to protect it. If this country was ever under attack from the in- or the outside, I would protect this country, or any of the other European countries. At least I hope so, since I can't say for sure. You never know how you'll react when it comes to terms.
I would do this rather to protect the people I know and love and because some things should never get the chance to repeat so easily, but I wouldn't do it that much for the sake of the country, or people I don't know.

In Germany you don't have this kind of patriotism. No one has a flag in front of their house, the World Cup was a real exception and led to heaps of discussion about the "new patriotism" and so on. In generally, if you have a German flag in front of your house people will say you're a Nazi, or at least very dangerous.
We support our soccer team and are crazy about it, loved the success Michael Schumacher had and many teens fell in love when Boris Becker won Wembley (my mother still can't understand how the girls back then loved this ugly guy).
But when it comes to pariotism in a wider sense that's hard to find here.

We arrived in Australia on January, 22 2006 in Adelaide. Two days later, on Australia Day, this crazy guy, about 20-25 years old, walked by, draped in an Australian flag, hollering Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi! all the time. I don't know if he could speak a single word the next day, but I don't think so.
My friend and I thought "What a crazy guy." It was great entertainment. :D

The center of Berlin has changed a lot. 17 years ago the wall was built directly through where now the Government district is. On both sides of the wall not much was done, and so it was really ugly. Since the reunification everything has changed there. The Potsdamer Platz was the largest construction site in the world a few years back. The Alexanderplatz with the television tower is a large construction site today.

Going to the east of Berlin you can see how different it is compared to the west. That's amazing. It's one city, but two worlds.
Many buildings are younger than twenty years, with an amazing architecture. Then again there are some houses left from before the war that have a great architecture either.
 
Irvine511 said:
but Germany would have other Germans die to protect you Vincent. and Ireland would have other Irish die to protect you, FG.

is that not love?

if not, what is it?
Click to expand...

i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.
 
unico said:


i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.
Click to expand...

I would do it. :)
 
I don't believe in hating, loving, dying for, killing for, or waving or burning flags for any country. That includes Australia. I like it here. I even love living here. I don't think it is possible to love what 'here' is, though.
 
unico said:


i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.
Click to expand...



but isn't the end result the same?

i'm sure there were jackass, confederate flag bandana-wearing men who stormed Omaha Beach. sure, walking down the street he might try to hit you with his car, but when mediated through notions of "the country/state," you both have a mutual shared interest in the preservation of the state, and if his role is to defend that state, and you are a member of the state as well, then he is protecting you even if not his personal choice.

i'm also talking in the very abstract here.

the post i've related to the most so far is Yolland's. there are ideas behind some countries -- certainly the US -- that i do think i love, however imperfectly the idea is lived out in real life. that might be something i love, or at least greatly admire, and strangely what i admire most is that it's almost anti-nationalistic at it's core, or at least anti-nationalistic if we are to understand traditional nationalism as having to do with a "blood and soil" identity. the lack of a myth of origin unteathers these notions from race and ethnicity and color and religion. it's the difference between "this land is your land" and "god bless america."

but i find the idea of dying for a country strange, and i could very happily live in a variety of other countries (though i'd probably start getting misty-eyed and romantic about life in the US). i abhor people who seem to identify with the nation-state as a means of feeling better about one's self. sure, i get weirdly nationalistic for 2 weeks every 4 years during the Olympics (come on, who doesn't), but people who seem to have a part of their own self-esteem rooted in America being "the best" at whatever it is they've decided, it all seems strange to me. i would never say "this is the greatest country on earth" and i always wonder why the president can't ask God to bless other countries as well.

but i wonder if so much of this isn't contingent upon people who would say that they "love" their country to the extent that they're willing to die for it. that there is something to, say, the Jack Nicholson character in "A Few Good Men" when he talks about having "neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it!"

i wonder if we aren't all a little self-absorbed -- do we have duties to the state? obligations? responsibilities? since the state has, to some extent, given us "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" who are we to not rise to defend it should we be called upon to do so? now, this isn't necessarily *blind*, i don't think these things have to be inherently negative, as it has been argued that in Germany of the 1930s/40s the greater act of love for Germany would have been to dissent (however much that might have been possible). there's no question that much of the 20th century was defined by the tragedy of European nationalism that grew over much of the 19th century. but it doesn't always have to be that way, does it? or does the path of nationalism/patriotism inevitably lead to conflict with another competing state entity?

(and, yes, Berlin is an amazing city)
 
I'm not quite sure you CAN love a country in the sense that you love a person...I suppose I do love my country, just not all the people who live here, and surely not the folk running it.

I do think nationalism is a dangerous thing though. I think that no good can come of a tendency to place a higher value on a man's life based on where he was born; I know very many Americans think they're literally "better" because they're Americans.

And not sure about love but the way things are going I'd be happy if the rest of the world could at least like my country...
 
I'm only 16, so I haven't had to work too much with the government. Ask me in ten years.
 
Im proud to be Australian, and I love my countries scenery, and comfortable living, but I don't know what to love a country is. do I love the land? Yes I do. I love walking barefoot down the sandy rivets of the dry river beds here in the desert, or hiking through the blue mountains, or swimming in the crystal clear waters of far north queensland, but as for the people, the cities, the government meh. im apathetic.
 
Irvine511 said:

i wonder if we aren't all a little self-absorbed -- do we have duties to the state? obligations? responsibilities?
Click to expand...

Sure, be a productive member of society, embrace opportunities and make the best of them and do no harm to your fellow citizens. To me, that about does it.

But these are duties of any decent human being, not of a specific citizen of a specific nation.

I think this question will be answered differently by people who lived their entire lives in one place (I don't consider things like school somewhere for 6 months or a short-term contract to be "living" in a country) and people who have moved around in our global society.
 
anitram said:


Sure, be a productive member of society, embrace opportunities and make the best of them and do no harm to your fellow citizens. To me, that about does it.
Click to expand...



could that be love? do we get from a country more than we give?
 
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