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Old 06-26-2007, 07:20 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511
but Germany would have other Germans die to protect you Vincent. and Ireland would have other Irish die to protect you, FG.

is that not love?

if not, what is it?
i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:24 AM   #17
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i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.
I would do it.
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:54 AM   #18
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I would do it.
You're so sweet!

But, you don't have to die for me. Just live for me. I mean, truly live life to the fullest!
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:08 AM   #19
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Things are going uphill again, slowly but surely.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:35 AM   #20
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I don't believe in hating, loving, dying for, killing for, or waving or burning flags for any country. That includes Australia. I like it here. I even love living here. I don't think it is possible to love what 'here' is, though.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


i personally think that is a load of crap. i honestly doubt that the jackass sneering at me while he is wearing his confederate flag bandana then joins the military is really thinking of dying to protect my life.


but isn't the end result the same?

i'm sure there were jackass, confederate flag bandana-wearing men who stormed Omaha Beach. sure, walking down the street he might try to hit you with his car, but when mediated through notions of "the country/state," you both have a mutual shared interest in the preservation of the state, and if his role is to defend that state, and you are a member of the state as well, then he is protecting you even if not his personal choice.

i'm also talking in the very abstract here.

the post i've related to the most so far is Yolland's. there are ideas behind some countries -- certainly the US -- that i do think i love, however imperfectly the idea is lived out in real life. that might be something i love, or at least greatly admire, and strangely what i admire most is that it's almost anti-nationalistic at it's core, or at least anti-nationalistic if we are to understand traditional nationalism as having to do with a "blood and soil" identity. the lack of a myth of origin unteathers these notions from race and ethnicity and color and religion. it's the difference between "this land is your land" and "god bless america."

but i find the idea of dying for a country strange, and i could very happily live in a variety of other countries (though i'd probably start getting misty-eyed and romantic about life in the US). i abhor people who seem to identify with the nation-state as a means of feeling better about one's self. sure, i get weirdly nationalistic for 2 weeks every 4 years during the Olympics (come on, who doesn't), but people who seem to have a part of their own self-esteem rooted in America being "the best" at whatever it is they've decided, it all seems strange to me. i would never say "this is the greatest country on earth" and i always wonder why the president can't ask God to bless other countries as well.

but i wonder if so much of this isn't contingent upon people who would say that they "love" their country to the extent that they're willing to die for it. that there is something to, say, the Jack Nicholson character in "A Few Good Men" when he talks about having "neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it!"

i wonder if we aren't all a little self-absorbed -- do we have duties to the state? obligations? responsibilities? since the state has, to some extent, given us "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" who are we to not rise to defend it should we be called upon to do so? now, this isn't necessarily *blind*, i don't think these things have to be inherently negative, as it has been argued that in Germany of the 1930s/40s the greater act of love for Germany would have been to dissent (however much that might have been possible). there's no question that much of the 20th century was defined by the tragedy of European nationalism that grew over much of the 19th century. but it doesn't always have to be that way, does it? or does the path of nationalism/patriotism inevitably lead to conflict with another competing state entity?

(and, yes, Berlin is an amazing city)
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:14 AM   #22
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I'm not quite sure you CAN love a country in the sense that you love a person...I suppose I do love my country, just not all the people who live here, and surely not the folk running it.

I do think nationalism is a dangerous thing though. I think that no good can come of a tendency to place a higher value on a man's life based on where he was born; I know very many Americans think they're literally "better" because they're Americans.

And not sure about love but the way things are going I'd be happy if the rest of the world could at least like my country...
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:19 AM   #23
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Well then, Irvine, I guess my short answer to your question is

No, I do not want to make sweet love to the US.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico
Well then, Irvine, I guess my short answer to your question is

No, I do not want to make sweet love to the US.
The entire U.S.?


Dang girl, you'd have more diseases than K-Fed!
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:24 AM   #25
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I'm only 16, so I haven't had to work too much with the government. Ask me in ten years.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:27 AM   #26
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Originally posted by unico
No, I do not want to make sweet love to the US.




ungrateful liberal.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:03 AM   #27
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Im proud to be Australian, and I love my countries scenery, and comfortable living, but I don't know what to love a country is. do I love the land? Yes I do. I love walking barefoot down the sandy rivets of the dry river beds here in the desert, or hiking through the blue mountains, or swimming in the crystal clear waters of far north queensland, but as for the people, the cities, the government meh. im apathetic.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:22 AM   #28
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Originally posted by Irvine511

i wonder if we aren't all a little self-absorbed -- do we have duties to the state? obligations? responsibilities?
Sure, be a productive member of society, embrace opportunities and make the best of them and do no harm to your fellow citizens. To me, that about does it.

But these are duties of any decent human being, not of a specific citizen of a specific nation.

I think this question will be answered differently by people who lived their entire lives in one place (I don't consider things like school somewhere for 6 months or a short-term contract to be "living" in a country) and people who have moved around in our global society.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:35 AM   #29
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Sure, be a productive member of society, embrace opportunities and make the best of them and do no harm to your fellow citizens. To me, that about does it.


could that be love? do we get from a country more than we give?
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:45 AM   #30
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Originally posted by Irvine511




could that be love? do we get from a country more than we give?
i dunno, we do pay taxes
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