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Old 03-28-2007, 12:36 AM   #61
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I wouldn't go so far is to say that Japan now reflects "western" culture.
Well, they don't have a Western history, and granted they have many (often wonderful) non-Western traditions. But each generation will see further homogenization I think it's safe to predict.
It's an "and/or" list.

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I'd also add that Western culture hardly needs "defending." It's hardly under threat of annihilation. If anything it is more powerful, influential, and pervasive than ever. Which I'm not saying is a bad--or good--thing. It just is.
I agree, we flood the world with our culture. We are by far richer. But, externally, other world-views (not compatible with modern Western society) exist, and are gaining acceptance. Internally, multi-culturalism (when it teaches the moral equivalency of cultures) threatens to slow assimilation.
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and I would also agree that is the definition used by "sane" people, but that's not what Aeon was implying.
Implying that Aeon is "not sane?"
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:23 AM   #62
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Originally posted by INDY500

Well, they don't have a Western history, and granted they have many (often wonderful) non-Western traditions. But each generation will see further homogenization I think it's safe to predict.

That's if the multi-culti crowd is stopped, right?


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Originally posted by INDY500
I agree, we flood the world with our culture. We are by far richer. But, externally, other world-views (not compatible with modern Western society) exist, and are gaining acceptance. Internally, multi-culturalism (when it teaches the moral equivalency of cultures) threatens to slow assimilation.
It's interesting to note that you feel that the homegenization of world cultures via a gradual assimilation of Western culture is a good thing, a goal worth of striving for and things that interfere with that progression should be cause for concern. Am I reading you right on this?

If so, then how far would you take this belief? What are you thoughts on some of the colonialist and imperialist behaviors and attitudes of the 19th century?

As far as the concept of "preserving" culture per se (whether the behemoth that is Western culture or the soon-to-be extinct--according to you--Japanese culture) I guess I'm a bit ambivalent. Culture by it's very nature is constantly in flux and the idea that any culture can be preserved in it's "pure" form is really an illusion. For example, what we might refer to as "Hispanic" or "Latino" culture, at leat in this hemisphere didn't even exist 500 years ago. And let's think about Western culture. . .a lot of people are sure Western civ is under attack when we talk about bilinguilism etc. But what IS the language of Western culture? I'd suggest at one time it was Greek, then Latin, then for awhile a three way split between say English-Spanish-French, and now English seems to the dominant language of Western culture. Whose to say it may not change yet again.

Usually people who get overly concerned with preserving the purity of the culture (whether a majority or minority culture) end up doing some pretty sick things.

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Implying that Aeon is "not sane?"
I was just agreeing with you! You (and he) will have to draw your own conclusions. Usually I can respect where Aeon is coming from even if I disagree. I'm having a harder time doing that on this topic, maybe because it's more personal to me.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:13 AM   #63
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Originally posted by INDY500

I agree, we flood the world with our culture. We are by far richer. But, externally, other world-views (not compatible with modern Western society) exist, and are gaining acceptance. Internally, multi-culturalism (when it teaches the moral equivalency of cultures) threatens to slow assimilation.

So, Western civilization and culture may spread and be assimilated by everywhone, but God help us if this also went the other way round?
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:58 AM   #64
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Just popping in before I head out to my conference, and yes, Indy...sean pretty much clarified what I meant. I'm all for Western Civ (heck, I almost wanted to be a history major in college) but the context in which the word was being used was what threw up a flag for me. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. And now I must head out to the pantheon of American civilization (or lack thereof) Washington D.C. Wish me luck.
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:53 AM   #65
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Originally posted by maycocksean



Usually I can respect where Aeon is coming from even if I disagree. I'm having a harder time doing that on this topic, maybe because it's more personal to me.
Perhaps I am insane. After all, I did rejoin the National Guard in March 2003!

I can understand why this issue is personal to you. As a matter of fact, I think the issue of race is more often emotional than it is rational.

I especially agreed with your MTV comments. And I agree with the warnings that Bill Cosby has been sending out regarding hip-hop culture.

I can be a bit defensive about Western Civ. When I was at the University of Arizona, not exactly a liberal college but certainly not conservative (no public school is), I found that Western Civ was always attacked - and never defended or even discussed in a balanced manner. When I pointed out to a professor (in an American Sociology class) in response to her rant about the horror of the Crusades that the Muslims almost conquered Europe well before the Crusades - she literally flipped out and screamed at me for being a Newt Gingrich clone. She eventually conceded that perhaps we’d all have been better off if the Muslims had conquered Europe.

I hear from the younger folks at my work and in the military that professors are worse today than they were back in my college days. There simply is no place for opposing views to these ultra-liberal propagandists.

That being said, when I took a class named "Homer: the Iliad and the Odyssey" I was originally excited to take an upper division class focused on two of the greatest books in Western Civilization. However, about halfway through the class, we were forced to read and write essays on African poetry which the teacher considered "just as beautiful and important." Needless to say - the poetry was pure crap. But that wasn't my problem with the class. My problem was that I signed up to take Homer. If I wanted to study African poetry, I would sign up for it.

Yes, I am white. I am both sorry and proud of my heritage. I celebrate the good white characters in movies and hiss at the evil white characters. If you don’t like the way your race is represented – then do something about it. You can 1) make a movie that says something different and 2) stop feeding the monster with your money.
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Old 03-28-2007, 09:26 AM   #66
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Originally posted by AEON
I hear from the younger folks at my work and in the military that professors are worse today than they were back in my college days. There simply is no place for opposing views to these ultra-liberal propagandists.
I won't lie in that I wanted to avoid these kinds of professors like the plague, and I was fortunate to do so being part of Michigan State University's Honors College. I found that pretty much all these shrill, idiotic professors were part of the core curriculum; but, as a benefit to being in the Honors College, we were able to substitute the generic, core curriculum with courses from the main university (i.e., rather than taking a "core" history class, you could take a history class from the history department).

As a result of having substituted out all the core curriculum with "real courses," I was able avoid all those "propagandists." I feel bad for my sister, though, who goes to a different university. She's had more than one shrill propagandist during her time; and, as expected, they're all in her core curriculum, not her major studies.

Perhaps the question worth asking is why universities think so little of their core courses that they have to hire idiots, for the most part?
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Old 03-28-2007, 10:35 AM   #67
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Originally posted by AEON


Perhaps I am insane.


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Originally posted by AEON

I can understand why this issue is personal to you. As a matter of fact, I think the issue of race is more often emotional than it is rational.
More emotional than rational? The bubble you live in is getting smaller and smaller the more you talk. Unbelievable.

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Originally posted by AEON

I can be a bit defensive about Western Civ. When I was at the University of Arizona, not exactly a liberal college but certainly not conservative (no public school is)
You obviously didn't go to school where I did.


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Originally posted by AEON

However, about halfway through the class, we were forced to read and write essays on African poetry which the teacher considered "just as beautiful and important." Needless to say - the poetry was pure crap.
You don't even realize how racist you're being.
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If you don’t like the way your race is represented – then do something about it. You can 1) make a movie that says something different and 2) stop feeding the monster with your money.
And now you come back to the ridiculous stance that already got ripped to shreds. What an embarrasment.
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Old 03-28-2007, 10:47 AM   #68
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I still haven't seen an explanation of how wanting more/more positive representations of racial minorities in the media constitutes a hateful attack on Western civilization.
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Old 03-28-2007, 11:09 AM   #69
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If you think "Western Civilization" is "code" and not something worth intellectually defending...you either live in Manhattan or Hollywood...or you need to travel more.

and if you think George Bush is a good president, you live in East Buttfuck, Texas?

can you stop with the regionalism? you make good points but always seem to debase them with cheap, easy, Hannity/Coulter asides at "Hollyweird" types or (gay/jewish) New Yorkers.

anyway ... those who say they only see a hero, and not Denzel's race, when they watch a movie clearly have never had to worry about about their own race.

i'll point to a good example of this -- i've spoken of my best friend in here, she's Indian. i never think of her as Indian in any sort of meaningful sense, she's just my friend, but something struck me when we were in college. she had just watched "The English Patient" and loved it, and not just for the beautiful story, gorgeous cinematography, and Ralph Fiennes withering/sexy looks. but because there was an Indian character in it. Kip. and he got to have sex! in a movie! an Indian character having sex!
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:55 PM   #70
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I still haven't seen an explanation of how wanting more/more positive representations of racial minorities in the media constitutes a hateful attack on Western civilization.
I wasn't exactly making a one for one correlation. I was simply implying that that there is a trend of ripping Western Civilization and in some instances replacing it with inferior quality simply because it is "something else." I am all for a positive role model, despite the color of the role models skin.

And I don't see how my dislike of African Poetry in my Greek Literature class is racist. As a matter of fact, I think it is racist and short-minded to imply such a thing. How happy do you suppose the students in an African Literature class would be if the professor decided to spend half the class focused on the fictional books by Newt Gingrich?
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:59 PM   #71
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Originally posted by Irvine511



there was an Indian character in it. Kip. and he got to have sex! in a movie! an Indian character having sex!
Was that Sayed from LOST? He's one of my favorite characters on the show - and he a former Iraqi Soldier! (the character is). Why? Because of who he is on the show and NOT because I feel like I need to like a certain percentage of Iraqis to consider myself multi-cultural.

And no, I don't worry about my race. I wish others would do the same.
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Old 03-28-2007, 02:07 PM   #72
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I won't lie in that I wanted to avoid these kinds of professors like the plague, and I was fortunate to do so being part of Michigan State University's Honors College. I found that pretty much all these shrill, idiotic professors were part of the core curriculum; but, as a benefit to being in the Honors College, we were able to substitute the generic, core curriculum with courses from the main university (i.e., rather than taking a "core" history class, you could take a history class from the history department).

As a result of having substituted out all the core curriculum with "real courses," I was able avoid all those "propagandists." I feel bad for my sister, though, who goes to a different university. She's had more than one shrill propagandist during her time; and, as expected, they're all in her core curriculum, not her major studies.

Perhaps the question worth asking is why universities think so little of their core courses that they have to hire idiots, for the most part?
I had shrill propagandists in both my core and and in my major studies. The Homer class I was referring to was a 400 level class (fourth year class). It was actually less pronounced in my core classes because there was only time for Death by Powerpoint.

Ironically, a friend of mine that just graduated from UC Berkely of all places said that most of the teachers he had were very quiet about their personal politics. Of course, he wasn't signing up for Women's Studies courses, but he is a PhD candidate for Urban Planning...

I suppose that college teaching as a profession generally attracts those inclined to liberal activism.
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Old 03-28-2007, 02:11 PM   #73
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Originally posted by Ormus

I found that pretty much all these shrill, idiotic professors were part of the core curriculum;
What's a core curriculum?

The best professor I have at law school is a very distinguished guy (really, world renowned) who is absolutely set in his ways and extremely opinionated and preachy on every subject. But his philosophy is also "make me an argument" and you are never penalized for disagreeing.

A shrill professor is only a bad professor when they shut down your ability to participate in critical thinking. Otherwise, I absolutely don't mind them expressing their views, whether I agree or not. Most of them, if they are good, have reached them after some intellectual debate and consideration and I can respect that.
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Old 03-28-2007, 02:12 PM   #74
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And I don't see how my dislike of African Poetry in my Greek Literature class is racist. As a matter of fact, I think it is racist and short-minded to imply such a thing.
It's the fact that you said "needless to say" as if it's a given that African poetry = crap.

You say "needless to say" when something is a given, when it's fact.

So yeah, it's racist. No implying needed.
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Old 03-28-2007, 02:15 PM   #75
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I suppose that college teaching as a profession generally attracts those inclined to liberal activism.
Actually it attracts those who are more educated. You can make your own deductions from that.
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