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Old 09-20-2006, 01:51 PM   #31
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Originally posted by INDY500


Can I quote you on the next "global warming" thread?
I'm a big believer in freedom of speech, even if I don't believe in the speech...
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:17 PM   #32
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

And if one doesn't accept that tale then the concept of original sin goes out the window and the rest of the theology unwinds
You and I agree on this point.

That has been my point all along, when I say that that if Adam and Eve were not actual living people, then the Gospel itself can't be trusted, because the concept of original sin is such an important point in it. Not only that, but Christ himself spoke of them as if they were living, breathing people, not fictional characters. If people don't believe what Christ himself said, then how can they say they believe in him at all?

We disagree in what we do with that point: I believe in Adam and Eve and you don't. But the point is true, nevertheless.
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Old 09-20-2006, 05:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by preciousstone
OK so who was the unknown WOMEN that Cain and Abel, the "first" sons of Adam and Eve- the ONLY people on earth, mated with to make the beginning of the world?

Answer that, will you?
SO I'm not the only one who always wanted to know that?
God, whata relief.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:16 PM   #34
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From another thread...

Actually, I think there is quite a bit of logical and scientific data pointing toward God’s existence. It seems an increasing number of scientists throughout this century are publicly acknowledging the metaphysical implications of both the ‘Big Bang’ and the ‘fine-tuning’ (ID) characteristics of the universe. Here is a sample of some of the brightest minds of the last century and their take of Intelligent Design. They can hardly be confused as simpletons or religious nuts.

Albert Einstein (Nobel Prize 1921): “Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.”

Paul Davies (former professor of theoretical physics at the University of Adelaide): “Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact. I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, an accident of history, an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama.”

Sir Fred Hoyle: “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in Nature.”

Allan Rex Sandage (famous astronomer, dubbed the “Grand Old Man of Cosmology” by the New York Times, and a former atheist): “It was my science that drove me to the conclusion that the world is much more complicated than can be explained by science. It was only through the supernatural that I could understand the mystery of existence.”

Dr Arno Penzias (Nobel Prize-winning astrophysicist): “I invite you to examine the snapshot provided by half a century’s worth of astrophysical data and see what the pieces of the universe actually look like...In order to achieve consistency with our observations we must...assume not only creation of matter and energy out of nothing, but creation of space and time as well. The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole.”

Professor Vera Kistiakowski (professor of physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and former president of the Association of Women in Science): “The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.”

Dr Stephen Meyer (a geophysicist with a Cambridge doctorate in origin-of-life biology): “If it’s true there’s a beginning to the universe, as modern cosmologists now agree, then this implies a cause that transcends the universe. If the laws of physics are fine-tuned to permit life, as contemporary physicists are discovering, then perhaps there’s a designer who fine-tuned them. If there’s information in the cell, as molecular biology shows, then this suggests intelligent design. To get life going in the first place would have required biological information; the implications point beyond the material realm to a prior intelligent cause.”
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:49 AM   #35
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Intelligent design is different than the precice nature of the cosmological constant, the speed of light etc.

ID puports that all life has been designed and created by an outside intelligence and has not arisen through naturalistic means.

The argument that these physicists make is that universe itself is condusive to the stability of matter and energy at this point in time and that if any physical constant was a little different then this wouldn't be possible; you will find that the arguments they are making are not pleas to God rather ones to the anthropic principle - if the universe wasn't the way it is then it wouldn't be the way it is and we wouldn't be around to see it.
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Old 09-23-2006, 01:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
That has been my point all along, when I say that that if Adam and Eve were not actual living people, then the Gospel itself can't be trusted, because the concept of original sin is such an important point in it. Not only that, but Christ himself spoke of them as if they were living, breathing people, not fictional characters. If people don't believe what Christ himself said, then how can they say they believe in him at all?
This conundrum is not an issue with every religion. Roman Catholicism sees no problem with disavowing Adam and Eve, while still believing in original sin.

With that, I disagree with almost the entire doctrine of original sin. Almost all of it is medieval in nature, thanks to St. Augustine of Hippo, and it is an example of a minor aspect of the Bible being blown up into something more important than it is. Even then, I don't believe that we are inherently evil or dirty, as original sin implies.

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Old 09-23-2006, 01:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Not only that, but Christ himself spoke of them as if they were living, breathing people, not fictional characters. If people don't believe what Christ himself said, then how can they say they believe in him at all?

He was very fond of parables.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


He was very fond of parables.
Christ did often tell parables. But at the time that he spoke of the creation Adam and Eve, he was not telling a parable.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


With that, I disagree with almost the entire doctrine of original sin. Almost all of it is medieval in nature, thanks to St. Augustine of Hippo, and it is an example of a minor aspect of the Bible being blown up into something more important than it is. Even then, I don't believe that we are inherently evil or dirty, as original sin implies.
Melon
I will clarify what I believe, because I'm not necessarily "in tune" with the idea of "original sin", either, in the context of everyone being guilty of sin from the moment they're born.

I want to say first that the following is not something that I am 100% sure of, but that I do believe.

I do believe that every one is born with the "sin nature", which is the predisposition, the urging to commit sin. However, I do not believe that someone is held responsible for his sin until he knows what sin is (the difference between right and wrong) and realizes he has sinned or is sinning. The reason I believe that is because when the Pharisees asked Christ if they were blind, he said "You are not blind because you say you see; if you were blind, there would be no sin".
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Old 09-23-2006, 05:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Christ did often tell parables. But at the time that he spoke of the creation Adam and Eve, he was not telling a parable.
Right, but that now contradicts your point...

Quote:
but Christ himself spoke of them as if they were living, breathing people, not fictional characters.
He spoke about the prodical son in the same exact way
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Old 09-23-2006, 06:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Right, but that now contradicts your point...



He spoke about the prodical son in the same exact way
I don't see the contradiction.

It is quite possible to tell the difference between the instances when Christ is speaking in a parable and when he is not.

A parable takes the form of a fictional story.

When he was talking about Adam and Eve, he was talking to Pharisees and answering their questions about divorce. He was not speaking in a story format/parable.

Mark 10:3-8
(3)And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
(4)And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
(5)And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
(6)But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
(7)For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
(8)And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

In verse 6, Christ is quoting almost verbatim Genesis 1:27, whcih is in the story of the creation, and specifically about Adam and Eve.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

In that last bit (7-8), Christ is quoting Genesis 2:24, which is also about Adam and Eve.

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
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Old 09-24-2006, 03:49 AM   #42
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Quote:
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I don't see the contradiction.
Did he ever tell the crowd the prodical son was just a story?
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Old 09-24-2006, 06:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by preciousstone
OK so who was the unknown WOMEN that Cain and Abel, the "first" sons of Adam and Eve- the ONLY people on earth, mated with to make the beginning of the world?

Answer that, will you?
The bible never actually says they were the ONLY people on Earth. They may have been the first, and were probably the only people in the Garden of Eden. But the assumption that they were the only people on the Earth isn't very Biblically supported.

In Genesis Chapter 1, on the sixth day, God creates man:

Quote:
26Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life--the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the livestock, wild animals, and small animals."
27So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and told them, "Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters over the fish and birds and all the animals."
Then you get down to Chapter 2, which opens with the seventh day (when God rested), and the creation of man is repeated:

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4This is the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the heavens and the earth,
5there were no plants or grain growing on the earth, for the LORD God had not sent any rain. And no one was there to cultivate the soil.
6But water came up out of the ground and watered all the land.
7And the LORD God formed a man's body from the dust of the ground and breathed into it the breath of life. And the man became a living person.
8Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he placed the man he had created.
Skip down a bit, and we get to the creation of woman:

Quote:
15The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it.
16But the LORD God gave him this warning: "You may freely eat any fruit in the garden
17except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."
18And the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion who will help him."
19So the LORD God formed from the soil every kind of animal and bird. He brought them to Adam to see what he would call them, and Adam chose a name for each one.
20He gave names to all the livestock, birds, and wild animals. But still there was no companion suitable for him.
21So the LORD God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep. He took one of Adam's ribs and closed up the place from which he had taken it.
22Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib and brought her to Adam.
23"At last!" Adam exclaimed. "She is part of my own flesh and bone! She will be called `woman,' because she was taken out of a man."
From all of that, you can almost assume that God did indeed make people elsewhere, just not in Eden. But he needed people in Eden to tend to the gardens, and so he created Adam and Eve.

And then of course, we get down to Chapter 3, with Original Sin, and we get this bit too:

Quote:
20Then Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all people everywhere.
This is probably where the assumption that they were the only people on Earth comes from. But in the following chapter, the Bible pretty much debunks that theory.

In Chapter 4, we have Cain murdering Abel:

Quote:
10But the LORD said, "What have you done? Listen--your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground!
11You are hereby banished from the ground you have defiled with your brother's blood.
12No longer will it yield abundant crops for you, no matter how hard you work! From now on you will be a homeless fugitive on the earth, constantly wandering from place to place."
13Cain replied to the LORD, "My punishment is too great for me to bear!
14You have banished me from my land and from your presence; you have made me a wandering fugitive. All who see me will try to kill me!"
15The LORD replied, "They will not kill you, for I will give seven times your punishment to anyone who does." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain to warn anyone who might try to kill him.
16So Cain left the LORD's presence and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
If there were no other people on Earth yet, then why was Cain worried about people trying to kill him?
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Old 09-24-2006, 06:24 AM   #44
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Paranoid Schizophrenia?
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:20 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Paranoid Schizophrenia?


Thank you, I needed that laugh!
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