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Old 07-18-2006, 02:51 PM   #106
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic




AEON believes that the Holy Spirit is poured into the heart of the person at the moment s/he accepts Christ as Savior. I believe that the Holy Spirit is ever-present and universally available (we Calvinists come to this conclusion based on General Revelation) and that the Holy Spirit is actually what helps brings a person to accept Christ in the first place.
LivLuv,

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding somewhere. I am very familiar with what Calvin teaches, he is one of the leading Protestant thinkers and his writings are still studied quite extensively. And I am quite certain that he does not teach that the Holy Spirit resides in non-believers, especially since there are numerous passages that would blatantly contradict such a position.

Yes - the Holy Spirit is ever present, and yes, the Holy Spirit does lead one to a saving faith. But this is not the same concept of General Revelation. General Revelation is a theological term which refers understanding that there is a God through natural means - such as science, philosophy, or our own conscience. This is akin to looking at the Grand Canyon and thinking “Wow, there MUST be a God!”

Wikipedea (to show I am not biased) has a good summary of the Protestant Christian View of the Holy Spirit. Please check the verses cited for a better understanding.

In the New Testament one thing that marks the Christian from the non-Christian is the presence of the Spirit of God within them (Ephesians 4:30). It is not a vague concept, but a dynamic, tangible reality, which brings about victory over their earthly nature (Romans 8:4), giving a new mind (Romans 8:5 cf. 12:2). The gift of the Spirit is the first installment of what is to come (Romans 8:23, II Corinthians 5:5), a guarantee of the truth of the gospel (II Corinthians 1:22), a foretaste of heaven with a promise of more to come. The Spirit is given permanently to a believer (John 14:16), but unbelievers cannot know the Spirit (John 14:17) or see His effects or works, and talk of spiritual matters seems foolish and ridiculous to them (I Corinthians 2:14). The presence of God, through the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, enables them to do supernatural works through the power of the Spirit within them, though it is not the person but God who is actually doing the work (Romans 15:19). The fruit of the life of a spiritual person (Galatians 5:22f) sets them apart as a different kind of person. It is through believers that the Spirit speaks God’s word to the Church and to the world in this new dispensation, for the Spirit, which is the Spirit of prophecy is poured out on all who believe without limit (John 3:34). The Spirit (if we use one possible interpretation of the text) directs the destiny of believers and makes everything work harmoniously for good (Romans 8:28). Believers can see God’s love within them and active in their lives through the Spirit (Romans 5:5).
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:45 PM   #107
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LivLuv,

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding somewhere. I am very familiar with what Calvin teaches, he is one of the leading Protestant thinkers and his writings are still studied quite extensively. And I am quite certain that he does not teach that the Holy Spirit resides in non-believers, especially since there are numerous passages that would blatantly contradict such a position.
Did I say "resides"? I think I said "is present and available to". I don't agree with you definition of General Revelation (though I'd use the same example yougave). General Revelation -> God is revealed via the Holy Spirit through His creation. That's what I meant. I suppose it can't really be understood independent of Special Revelation, but it just illustrates that yes, it IS possible for an ancient tribe of people on a remote island who've never seen a Bible to be saved by God's grace.

I'm not going to get into what Calvin says because his theology is one of the most misinterpreted and misused. I have studied him at length and he's one of my favorites (I did, after all, attend Calvin College & Theological Seminary, and Calvin Church One of the coolest things I've ever seen is his Bible) If you are familiar with it as well, then there's no point dragging it out here, where it doesn't really relate to this thread anyway.

PS. Jean Cauvin implied a LOT of things that most modern Protestants find blatantly contradicted by Scripture.
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:54 PM   #108
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One thing that always confused me and turned me off to Calvinism is the idea of predestination.
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:55 PM   #109
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One thing that always confused me and turned me off to Calvinism is the idea of predestination.
See my above post:

"I'm not going to get into what Calvin says because his theology is one of the most misinterpreted and misused."

Predestination is much more of an issue with post-Calvin Protestantism than it was for John Calvin.
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:59 PM   #110
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Resides = indwelling - which was my only point = Without the Indwelling Holy Spirit - study and application of Scripture is impossible in a meaningful sense.

As far as I know, most major Christian denominations agree on this.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:02 PM   #111
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Resides = indwelling - which was my only point = Without the Indwelling Holy Spirit - study and application of Scripture is impossible in a meaningful sense.

I realize that was the point and I respectfully disagree.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:12 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Without the Indwelling Holy Spirit - study and application of Scripture is impossible in a meaningful sense.

As far as I know, most major Christian denominations agree on this.
Technically, I agree with you. But I think this is primarily true in the personal sense of "meaningful". It's how scripture "comes alive" to the reader--the power of the Holy Spirit giving enlightenment.

However, I DON'T think it means that once you have prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit's guidance from there on out any and all conclusions you draw about scripture will be Absolute Truth applicable not only to yourself but to everyone else. I'm very skeptical of the person who says "I prayed about it. . ." or "the Holy Spirit showed me. . ." and after that whatever they say next is "unassailable." What happens in a discussion like this is you say "I'm a born again Christian guided by the Holy Spirit therefore my conclusions about Scripture are correct, and those of you who are not born again Christians, well whatever you say about scripture cannot be correct because the Holy Spirit's not guiding you like He is me."

You can see how people might have a problem with that.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:14 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
AEON believes that the Holy Spirit is poured into the heart of the person at the moment s/he accepts Christ as Savior. I believe that the Holy Spirit is ever-present and universally available (we Calvinists come to this conclusion based on General Revelation) and that the Holy Spirit is actually what helps brings a person to accept Christ in the first place.
Are these two concepts mutually exclusive?

Scripture does support both concepts, I'm not sure why it becomes a matter of nullifying one statement because of a separate statement.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:18 PM   #114
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Are these two concepts mutually exclusive?

Scripture does support both concepts, I'm not sure why it becomes a matter of nullifying one statement because of a separate statement.
I meant that where Special Revelation says that you access the Holy Spirit through Scripture, General Revelation says that you can also access it through creation in general. Someone who is not familiar with either concept might wonder the purpose of GR, so I simply meant that they build off of each other. That's all I meant.

I love both concepts and find they work very well together.
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