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Old 07-03-2006, 11:28 AM   #61
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Originally posted by annj
if it happened then its a warning to us that someday soon that God is gonna say ...enough is enough you had your chance of running the earth your way.. and all you do is mess it up big time with your wars and letting people starve and your pollution and destroying the planet and not being able to live in peace with one another, despite the fact I gave you the bible with instructions to love one another and how to live your lives in harmony with MY will but you ignore it.. and blew it again..

I destroyed the world with a flood before because of the cruelty
of mankind to one another and filling the world with violence... and here we are the same old situation again

tough luck I am getting rid of you, maybe not by flood but by other means and doing things my way this time.. don't say I didn't warn you because it was in the bible for you to read, not my problem if you refused to believe it

funny enough no one believed Noah either and made a mockery of him when he built the ark wonder what they thought when the waters started coming up to their necks.. uh oh too late..

no wonder Jesus said it would be like that again, people eating and drinking and not taking any notice of what was coming .. wonder was he trying to tell us something that could maybe save our lives?

can you see a pattern here???


Oh well each to their own, we all got a brain and a free will to work things out for ourselves what we choose to believe or think

so I don't mind if you make a mockery of me believing in the biblical version of the flood, I am in good company with Noah
he came out the winner in that
Literal...allegory...No matter what you believe I, as a fellow Christian, still find these expeditions embarrassing. There are some genuine Biblical Archaeologists that do great, scientific work (discovering old trading routes, villages, forts…etc). I think these sore of expeditions do those men and women a real disservice.

But that is only my opinion. They are certainly free to whatever kind of expedition they want.
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Old 07-03-2006, 06:35 PM   #62
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You raise some interesting points Yolland on the authoritative approach for Scripture. Perhaps I’ve approached this differently in that I had the opportunity to read through and study the entire Bible for 4 years as a non-believer (Catholic high school) before I accepted any of it (some 5-6 years later). I liken my experience to that of Mary’s in John 20 where what was close and not understood suddenly became understood.

My comments were not designed to question one’s belief in Christ. I believe consistency in biblical interpretation and understanding is necessary to enhance authority when sharing. No one is suggesting that you must believe in the story of Noah as a direct requirement of salvation. And Lies has excellently captured the amazing truth about grace with the statement:

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The fact that a God exists who sent his own self, his own son to nullify forever the necessity of these Mosaic laws and Old Testemant covenants because it is ONLY through the grace of Christ we are saved
Saying “I don’t need to believe the historical accuracy of Noah” is quite different than saying “the story of Noah is not historically accurate.” The story itself is not a direct requirement for salvation, but turning it into allegory (when Scripture itself does not call for the reader to do so) leads one to the basic question: why isn’t the story of Jesus allegory? I don’t believe God gave us the entire body of Scripture so that we could play a spiritual game of Name That Savior (I can name that Savior in only 7 passages). When we begin to separate one passage from another using worldly filters, it becomes difficult to go back and proclaim with authority the message so well stated above.

To me, the troubling part about taking a story from Scripture and extracting the truth of what it represents, while questioning/dismissing the accuracy, makes it more difficult to establish the authority that is central to the faith. We see plenty of people who claim to follow the “teachings of Jesus,” but would not call Jesus Lord and Savior.

Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Aeon, there is nothing to suggest that Jesus Christ was a myth. The life of Christ has been corroborated by non-religious sources. The writings that detail the life and teachings of Christ were not written in narrative form. Before one's personal faith or religious conviction even comes into play, there's no reason not to believe that at the very least, Christ existed.
Again, I am not sure you want to set a standard for Scriptural authority by what can be corroborated by non-religious sources. The existence of Jesus (as well as many other individuals in the Bible) is verified in many non-religious sources. But what do these non-religious sources do to help establish the unique divine nature of Christ? Nothing. This methodology leaves you in the same trap of uneven authority. Does a teaching from Scripture need a corroborated non-religious source to be valid?

And in a way, seeking extra-Biblical sources for confirmation of Scripture begins to look like the expedition for Noah’s Ark – a need to confirm what we take by faith with tangible outside evidence.
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Old 07-04-2006, 01:55 AM   #63
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Does a teaching from Scripture need a corroborated non-religious source to be valid?
This is a very important question, and while I agree that you do not have to accept everything in the Bible as literal truth, I would say that if your answer to Nbc's question is yes, you're going to find yourself in a bit of a quandry.

For me, as a Christian, the obvious answer to this question has to be no.

A quick list of things in the Bible that are impossible (i.e. "uncorroborated by non-religious sources").

The literal six day creation
the talking snake
the world-wide flood
the parting of the Red Sea
the falling down of Jericho's walls
Samson
Jonah and the whale
the talking donkey
three men thrown into a fiery furnace and not burned up
The Virgin Birth
Turning water into wine
the feeding of the 5000
Jesus walking on water
Raising Lazarus
the Resurrection of Jesus
The existance of God

Now, in no way is a Christian required to take an all or nothing approach to the list above, but if you use as your sole criteria--"This couldn't have happened, this is not supported by science or history" then if you have a problem with one item on the list you have a problem with them all. After all, how is the resurrection of a dead man somehow more "scientfic" and "historically accurate" than a world wide flood or a whale swallowing a man?

I'm almost certain that not all of the events in the list above happened as is literally described in the Bible, however in order to be a Christian, I have to believe that it would have been POSSIBLE for all of them to have happened as described.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:40 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by annj



Oh well each to their own, we all got a brain and a free will to work things out for ourselves what we choose to believe or think

And if God gave us free will, why must we continually blindly obey him and his laws? Living a life by God and the Bible is not living a life of free will at all.
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:19 AM   #65
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1) the life of Jesus has been corroborated by other historical, non-religious writings
would you mind posting a list of these non-religious writings? thanks.
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:44 AM   #66
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And if God gave us free will, why must we continually blindly obey him and his laws? Living a life by God and the Bible is not living a life of free will at all.
You just answered your own question - to obey or not obey is free will.

In addition, if you look closely of what God asks of us - if we actually did obey we would live more joyful and purposeful lives. When we disobey God - someone gets hurt (either ourselves or someone else...but usually someone else because our lives our so connected).

Time and time again, I see people come to Christ wanting to live a better way. Their self-obsessed life has left them wanting. I was one of them. I found answers in Christ. However, the walk is a process. Thankfully, over time, I no longer saw God's commands as something I "have to do" - but as something I WANT to do. This is because my character has changed, my spirit has been regenerated.

The only thing blind about this whole matter is choosing not to see life through our own selfish eyes, but allowing ourselves to see life as Christ sees it. And that open tons of opportunities to demonstrate God's love and grace.
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:50 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Se7en


would you mind posting a list of these non-religious writings? thanks.
Search on Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian. Those are some that I can think of.

Not to mention - there are tons of references to the fist years of the church (Paul's Ministry).
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Old 07-04-2006, 11:22 AM   #68
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You just answered your own question - to obey or not obey is free will.
Okay.....so if we subscribe to Christianty and Jesus's way of life, THEN we have no free will (as we are obeying him). It's only a matter of free will when we orignally choose Christianity or not.
This is what I detest about all religions in general, we cannot use our own judgement to decide what is wrong and what is right. I firmly believe our in-built instinctual ethical system that all humans posses will suffice with making any ethical/moral decisions. Refering to a 2000 year old text is and an illusionary God only provides problems.
To give a personal example....My sister fell pregnant to a man whom she did not like > my fundamentalist Catholic mum said she MUST get married and MUST have the baby otherwise it is a sin > they get married > 6 months later they get divorced and her life is in absolute turmoil. All because of Christian traditions and teachings. If she was able to think for herself/use her own free will and not what her Christian teachings dictate, I can tell you, she would have led a much happier life. I can give you many more examples of how blindly following God, has had a terrible effect on my life and those around me. I am a humanist if you couldn't tell.
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Old 07-04-2006, 11:24 AM   #69
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There are other 'histrorical' writings of the life of Jesus, however, the New testament is the earliest of these 'historical' writings. Everything else that came after, was derived from the New testament as a base.
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Old 07-04-2006, 01:27 PM   #70
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


This is what I detest about all religions in general, we cannot use our own judgement to decide what is wrong and what is right. I firmly believe our in-built instinctual ethical system that all humans posses will suffice with making any ethical/moral decisions.

Well, is some cultures people love their neighbor, and in others they eat their neighbor - based on their own "instinctual" ethical system. I was wondering if you had a preference?

Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


To give a personal example....My sister fell pregnant to a man whom she did not like > my fundamentalist Catholic mum said she MUST get married and MUST have the baby otherwise it is a sin > they get married > 6 months later they get divorced and her life is in absolute turmoil. All because of Christian traditions and teachings. If she was able to think for herself/use her own free will and not what her Christian teachings dictate, I can tell you, she would have led a much happier life. I can give you many more examples of how blindly following God, has had a terrible effect on my life and those around me. I am a humanist if you couldn't tell.
This situation is sad, and it sounds like your sister needed gentleness and understanding more than she needed to be told to marry this fellow. Following one mistake with another is not usually good advice.

But as you can see, there can be a series of things that can go wrong when we start living on our own terms. I can definitely speak from experience on this one. My life can be described as a car crash that thankfully avoided doing too much damage to other cars (but there certainly was damage to other cars). I can trace back all of my mistakes to a single cause - putting my own needs and desires before the needs of others.
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Old 07-04-2006, 02:22 PM   #71
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Originally posted by AEON


Search on Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian. Those are some that I can think of.

Not to mention - there are tons of references to the fist years of the church (Paul's Ministry).
thanks.
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Old 07-05-2006, 02:11 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


This is a very important question, and while I agree that you do not have to accept everything in the Bible as literal truth, I would say that if your answer to Nbc's question is yes, you're going to find yourself in a bit of a quandry.

For me, as a Christian, the obvious answer to this question has to be no.

A quick list of things in the Bible that are impossible (i.e. "uncorroborated by non-religious sources").

The literal six day creation
the talking snake
the world-wide flood
the parting of the Red Sea
the falling down of Jericho's walls
Samson
Jonah and the whale
the talking donkey
three men thrown into a fiery furnace and not burned up
The Virgin Birth
Turning water into wine
the feeding of the 5000
Jesus walking on water
Raising Lazarus
the Resurrection of Jesus
The existance of God

Now, in no way is a Christian required to take an all or nothing approach to the list above, but if you use as your sole criteria--"This couldn't have happened, this is not supported by science or history" then if you have a problem with one item on the list you have a problem with them all. After all, how is the resurrection of a dead man somehow more "scientfic" and "historically accurate" than a world wide flood or a whale swallowing a man?

I'm almost certain that not all of the events in the list above happened as is literally described in the Bible, however in order to be a Christian, I have to believe that it would have been POSSIBLE for all of them to have happened as described.
I believe all the items listed happened.
I don't think the the earth was created in 144 hrs though and I don't think Satan was a a literal snake but that term was used to describe him.
I don't Eve was as stupid as main line Christians make her out to be.
I do believe the Biblical account of Moses and the parting of the Red Sea
I believe in:

the story of Samson and Delilah.
the talking jack ass and Balaam,

and the rest of these you listed:

three men thrown into a fiery furnace and not burned up
The Virgin Birth
Turning water into wine
the feeding of the 5000
Jesus walking on water
Raising Lazarus
the Resurrection of Jesus
The existance of God,


and you misspelled

existence .

thank u,

dbs
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:56 PM   #73
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:59 AM   #74
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how do u know?

dbs
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:10 AM   #75
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how do u know?

dbs
Think of it this way diamond...

Imagine every breed of animal known to man. Now let's put them all on a boat. Now that would have to be one huge boat, a boat larger than the Titanic. Now imagine the food these animals would need, and the space they would need to store it and keep it fresh, for many of these animals are carnivores. Now also keep in mind these animals all come from different climates and can't survive in certain climates.

So now we have a boat larger than anything we can build today, it has multi-climate control(technology that doesn't exist), the amount of waste these animals are producing can no way be expelled by the man power they have so they would have all died of disease, and of course you have the small chance that every animal is fertile...

Should I go on?
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