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Old 06-30-2006, 09:47 PM   #46
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I'll read it. Just not tonight. 12 days straight of work and 30 hours of overtime later, I'm plain exhausted. But I'll make sure to do it after I'm well rested from this long weekend.

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Old 06-30-2006, 11:47 PM   #47
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i luv threads like this.

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Old 07-01-2006, 12:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Conversely, how many years will it takes for people to realize that what they learn in college for the first time may not be truth? Seriously, how is it beyond God for the story of Noah to occur? If your method of interpretation allows free form re-writing or out-right dismissal of stories (since you can reduce them to myths or allow re-writes as with David & Goliath), where does it stop? Why on earth would someone believe you when you speak of the resurrection as truth (relying on Scripture), when you can take another passage of Scripture and toss it aside as myth?
What does college have anything to do with this?

It is not beyond God for the the Noah story to be true and this is a large part of what the myth teaches us. (When I say myth, I mean something whose point is entirely truth, but the characters and chronology aren't necessarily historically accurate, not a "myth" in the way the term is used in colloquial speech). Personally, I don't need scientific proof to believe that God is powerful enough to flood the earth. I don't need to know that it did happen simply to believe that it could.

I believe in the resurrection as truth because 1) the life of Jesus has been corroborated by other historical, non-religious writings and 2) the writings of Jesus' life and teachings were not in a narrative, allegorical style.
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:15 AM   #49
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Diamond - I feel bad that you are taking a bit of beating on this. Please understand that I do not take issue with you - nor your interpretation of Noah's Ark.

I was taking issue with the article.
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:39 AM   #50
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it's ok.

we'll all know the truth of all things in our future, and let it be understood i believe the story of noah, the flood and the ark, and the divinity of Christ whereby all mankind may be saved and stand as a witness for him of these truths in this life and the next.

dbs
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Old 07-01-2006, 11:58 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
it's ok.

we'll all know the truth of all things in our future, and let it be understood i believe the story of noah, the flood and the ark, and the divinity of Christ whereby all mankind may be saved and stand as a witness for him of these truths in this life and the next.

dbs
As do I, Diamond.
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:23 PM   #52
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Why on earth would someone believe you when you speak of the resurrection as truth (relying on Scripture), when you can take another passage of Scripture and toss it aside as myth?
Because it's a leap of faith. Isn't it? She may not take everything in the Bible literally, but the belief in Jesus' resurrection, divinity and promise of salvation are Christian non-negotiables, absolute cornerstones of the faith from which everything else (however that's understood) follows. Is that not the case?

You've said before in here that you made a decision at one point that either the whole Bible was true, or else it meant nothing. But did you not, presumably, in fact decide that you believed in Jesus first, with this all-or-nothing philosophy following from there...so that, in truth, your leap of faith in Jesus is "leading" all your other convictions about what the Bible says? If the answer is No, then I'm sincerely puzzled as to what motivated you to decide if the whole Bible were true to begin with, since that's otherwise also a leap of faith (and puzzled as to why you've agreed before in here with posters who stated that ultimately, belief in Jesus is the one true essential). And if the answer is Yes...well then aren't you criticizing her for doing exactly what you're doing, resolving on faith in Jesus first, then contradictorily asserting that unrelated (to that decision) scriptural passages have any fundamental bearing on that matter?

Dunno. It sometimes seems to me that you grant these inconsistency/hypocrisy/irrationality type charges more theological heft than they actually have. Or perhaps you're only trying to satisy your own mind, which is nothing if not rigorously logical. I can understand that, I prefer a systematic approach myself...once the initial leap of faith is made. But when you're arguing with your own coreligionists, fundamental articles of the faith are not what's at stake. And if you're arguing with someone outside that...do you really think they're going to accept your beliefs about Jesus more readily based on internal consistency with your beliefs about the Flood narrative? Perhaps in an emotional sense, a certain kind of person might find that "all-or-nothing" aspect appealing...but that's not the same thing as arriving at faith through logic.

Be patient with me here, lol..I fear I may be falling into some interreligious missing-analogy gap.
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Old 07-01-2006, 05:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Because it's a leap of faith. Isn't it? She may not take everything in the Bible literally, but the belief in Jesus' resurrection, divinity and promise of salvation are Christian non-negotiables, absolute cornerstones of the faith from which everything else (however that's understood) follows. Is that not the case?
This is definitely true. Perhaps NBCrusader will respond to you, but I understood his post a little bit differently than you did - I think.

The word "myth" carries a little bit of baggage. In Western Thinking, we generally use it in way that is a bit "dismissive." Sure, we attribute there is “some truth” in the meaning of the story, but we won't go so far as to say the event actually happened.

Speaking for myself, I do believe there was an event that would be considered the "Great Flood," there was a man named Noah, and there was an Ark. I believe God spoke with Noah and used Noah’s faith as a means to demonstrate His mercy. We can debate until we are blue in the face about the details (local versus global flood, did God use DNA samples to preserve the species...etc). But the story is true in a different way than if a myth is true. The story is more than a simple allegory, even if there are bits of allegory in the story. Am I making sense?

For most Christians (I cannot speak for Jews - maybe you could help us understand their interpretation of these types of writings from a Jewish perspective), the danger in accepting these stories as only a "myth" is that one could easily be persuaded that the story of Christ was also only a "myth," a mere allegory (as Joseph Campbell would argue). Yes, you are correct that faith in Christ DOES come before acceptance of the Bible. However, the Bible helps Christians to strengthen their faith and teaches them how to grow into the image of Christ. The Bible has also helped lead many people to Christ because hearing and reading the gospels "ring true" to them - and then the leap of faith.

Bible interpretation is obviously not an easy business…but oh, it is so important. It is also a ton of fun
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Old 07-02-2006, 12:17 AM   #54
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Thank you, yolland. If I had your smarts and ability to articulate, I may have entered the seminary.

I'd sure take the Bible a whole lot more literally if it were intended to provide a literal, historically accurate account. Just because I approach a narrative as a narrative does not mean I can't appreciate the moral and theological significance that the allegory illustrates. To me the Bible is so much more than simply a written regurgitation of a given string of events. Therefore, I don't NEED to have literal proof and I don't need to know that the Bible is the literal proof to believe in the Holy Spirit and the grace through Christ. I don't doubt anything because I do believe in the infallability (not inerrancy) of the Bible because it is God's word through the Holy Spirit. I don't care if Jericho never fell because of a march, I don't care if Satan never took the form of a snake, and I don't care how many twenty four hour days it took for God to create the world. The fact that a flood never covered the entire earth means nothing to my faith. The fact that a God exists who sent his own self, his own son to nullify forever the necessity of these Mosaic laws and Old Testemant covenants because it is ONLY through the grace of Christ we are saved.....that means something to me.
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Old 07-02-2006, 12:20 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

For most Christians (I cannot speak for Jews - maybe you could help us understand their interpretation of these types of writings from a Jewish perspective), the danger in accepting these stories as only a "myth" is that one could easily be persuaded that the story of Christ was also only a "myth," a mere allegory
Aeon, there is nothing to suggest that Jesus Christ was a myth. The life of Christ has been corroborated by non-religious sources. The writings that detail the life and teachings of Christ were not written in narrative form. Before one's personal faith or religious conviction even comes into play, there's no reason not to believe that at the very least, Christ existed.
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Old 07-02-2006, 01:04 AM   #56
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The fact that a flood never covered the entire earth means nothing to my faith. The fact that a God exists who sent his own self, his own son to nullify forever the necessity of these Mosaic laws and Old Testemant covenants because it is ONLY through the grace of Christ we are saved.....that means something to me.
What an awesome quote.
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Old 07-02-2006, 03:19 PM   #57
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic



It is not beyond God for the the Noah story to be true and this is a large part of what the myth teaches us. (When I say myth, I mean something whose point is entirely truth, but the characters and chronology aren't necessarily historically accurate, not a "myth" in the way the term is used in colloquial speech). Personally, I don't need scientific proof to believe that God is powerful enough to flood the earth. I don't need to know that it did happen simply to believe that it could.
I don't even need to post. This says it all!

I personally believe a flood of some sort happened (whether it was world wide or not is not important to me.) Obviously the writers THOUGHT it was worldwide.
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:08 PM   #58
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Obviously the writers THOUGHT it was worldwide.
Did he? How obvious is it? Perhaps he saw a regular ol' flood and thought, "hmm...a flood, eh? Now wouldn't THAT be a great way to teach a lesson about God's covenant!"
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Old 07-02-2006, 10:52 PM   #59
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Did he? How obvious is it? Perhaps he saw a regular ol' flood and thought, "hmm...a flood, eh? Now wouldn't THAT be a great way to teach a lesson about God's covenant!"
Maybe. Again, I don't think how it happened or if it happened really matters that much.
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:30 AM   #60
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if it happened then its a warning to us that someday soon that God is gonna say ...enough is enough you had your chance of running the earth your way.. and all you do is mess it up big time with your wars and letting people starve and your pollution and destroying the planet and not being able to live in peace with one another, despite the fact I gave you the bible with instructions to love one another and how to live your lives in harmony with MY will but you ignore it.. and blew it again..

I destroyed the world with a flood before because of the cruelty
of mankind to one another and filling the world with violence... and here we are the same old situation again

tough luck I am getting rid of you, maybe not by flood but by other means and doing things my way this time.. don't say I didn't warn you because it was in the bible for you to read, not my problem if you refused to believe it

funny enough no one believed Noah either and made a mockery of him when he built the ark wonder what they thought when the waters started coming up to their necks.. uh oh too late..

no wonder Jesus said it would be like that again, people eating and drinking and not taking any notice of what was coming .. wonder was he trying to tell us something that could maybe save our lives?

can you see a pattern here???


Oh well each to their own, we all got a brain and a free will to work things out for ourselves what we choose to believe or think

so I don't mind if you make a mockery of me believing in the biblical version of the flood, I am in good company with Noah
he came out the winner in that
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