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Old 06-30-2006, 05:01 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Shaliz
What I find particularly interesting is that this "explorer's" team doesn't appear to have included any archaeologists...just lawyers, businessmen, and "ministry leaders".

The little evidence presented in this article isn't enough to make any kind of a conclusion one way or the other from a scientific standpoint...and that's coming from someone who has studied archaeology in the Near/Middle East for many years. That may be the fault of the article's author, but in my experience, it often has as much to do with the lack of any real evidence to begin with. If this really is Noah's Ark, there will be other supporting evidence from an archaeological standpoint.
And this why, as a Christian, I find these sort of "expeditions" embarrassing. I get blasted at Church and Bible Studies because I refuse to “science bash” – especially using “Bad Science” as a weapon. It's like attacking a tree with a wet noodle.

Whether you take the story literally, figuratively, or a mixture (as I do) – the main hope of the story is that people get “the point” the author is trying to make; and that is: we all deserve judgment in this fallen world, but God can and does impart His Grace. Jesus quotes this story not to prove it actually happened, but to point out that God is the author of Justice AND Grace. Both are essential to His character. Jesus personifies both during His lifetime. While Christ is the ultimate Judge, He is also like the Ark –a vessel sent by God to save those that reach out to Him by faith - even though they do not deserve to be saved…i.e. Grace.
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Old 06-30-2006, 05:04 PM   #32
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Whether you take the story literally, figuratively, or a mixture (as I do) – the main hope of the story is that people get “the point” the author is trying to make;


so ... and i agree with you that this is probably the best way to approach the Bible ... why do you read this part of the Bible with your eye on "the point" and not on the specifics, but with other parts of the Bible (say, Leveticus) you keep your eye on "the specifics"?

not to beat a dead horse with a stick or anything ...
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Old 06-30-2006, 05:40 PM   #33
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Old 06-30-2006, 05:57 PM   #34
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it's okay, Diamond.

i'm sure they'll find Noah's Ark someday.

and, just to let you know that i am not unsympathetic, i want you to know that i think it was terrible what the English did to his wife, burning her at the stake and all.

just terrible.

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Old 06-30-2006, 06:17 PM   #35
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so ... and i agree with you that this is probably the best way to approach the Bible ... why do you read this part of the Bible with your eye on "the point" and not on the specifics, but with other parts of the Bible (say, Leveticus) you keep your eye on "the specifics"?

not to beat a dead horse with a stick or anything ...
lol - I KNEW this would come up As I pointed out in another thread, God's Moral Laws are eternal. That would be the "point" in citing Moral Laws in Leviticus and not the Ceremonial Laws which were no longer necessary because of Jesus' providing the everlasting sacrifice – Himself, the Lamb of God.
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Old 06-30-2006, 06:24 PM   #36
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And this why, as a Christian, I find these sort of "expeditions" embarrassing. I get blasted at Church and Bible Studies because I refuse to “science bash” – especially using “Bad Science” as a weapon. It's like attacking a tree with a wet noodle.

Whether you take the story literally, figuratively, or a mixture (as I do) – the main hope of the story is that people get “the point” the author is trying to make; and that is: we all deserve judgment in this fallen world, but God can and does impart His Grace. Jesus quotes this story not to prove it actually happened, but to point out that God is the author of Justice AND Grace. Both are essential to His character. Jesus personifies both during His lifetime. While Christ is the ultimate Judge, He is also like the Ark –a vessel sent by God to save those that reach out to Him by faith - even though they do not deserve to be saved…i.e. Grace.
I agree. I think these pseudo-scientific "expeditions" come across as desperate, rather than as genuine searches for truth or real evidence of anything. Part of the problem, and this isn't just limited to these sorts of Christian "archaeologists", is that if you go into the situation with the express goal of proving something you already believe to be true, it's hard for others to take your findings seriously. As far as this article presents it, the only evidence in this situation is a substance that may or may not be wood, some unexplained fossils, and some pottery shards.

It's remarks like this that make me laugh:

Quote:
High above the ark suspect, the team also found wood splinters and broken pottery shards under snow and rock at the 15,300 foot level. It showed evidence that ancients had thought this an important worship site for hundreds—if not thousands—of years.
A few pot shards does not a sacred site make...not to mention that with our current dating techniques and even basic typology, it should be possible to be a bit more definite than "hundreds—if not thousands—of years". There may, of course, be more evidence that just isn't detailed in this article, and there may be a great deal of further analysis to be done, but as presented, this isn't even remotely as conclusive as the article is claiming. Basically, based on what they've found so far, this could be pretty much anything.
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Old 06-30-2006, 06:35 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Irvine511
...why do you read this part of the Bible with your eye on "the point" and not on the specifics...
Just to clarify, I do not ignore any of the specifics in the Bible. Sometimes, the specifics in a story provide the most profound enlightenment. However, the specifics may be interpreted more “literarily” or “figuratively” – depending on a many number of things (i.e. does it fit with the rest of the sentence, chapter, book, Bible; is it pointing to God’s character, what is the historical/cultural context, what is the purpose of recording this event instead of a million other events that could be recorded…) It’s not an easy task for me – that’s why I am in seminary and that is why people dedicate their entire lives to studying the Bible.

That’s why it is still important to get “the point” of the stories, to find the Good News—if you will. Not everyone has the time or the “calling” to dedicate to dissecting Scripture to such details.
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Old 06-30-2006, 07:50 PM   #38
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I thought Noah's Ark had been "found" in the cleft between the 2 peaks of Mount Ararat during the Carter Administration. The hoopla being that people on a flight over the area had supposeldy seen it lying on its side in a mountain pass, right there. Huge enough to be seen from a plane,that high. Can't remember where I read the story. Books have been writtewn aobut this too.

I guess this is like the controversy over the Shroud..something that even if it is true, should not be "proven". Though for me the Shroud storey is much easier to believe. A team of scentists in 2002 thought they could prove the Shroud a fake within 20 minutes, they had all the newest technology. Instead they were left scratching their heads and more perplexed than ever. Nobody *still* knows how that Image got onto the cloth. It appears to have been burned on. It's much easier for me to beleive that He "burned" it on when He rose, than to beleive that something like Noah's Ark could sit somewhere for thousands of years undisturbed by Man. Maybe people have seen it and wanted to leave it sancrosanct..oh well.....
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Old 06-30-2006, 07:57 PM   #39
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lol - I KNEW this would come up As I pointed out in another thread, God's Moral Laws are eternal. That would be the "point" in citing Moral Laws in Leviticus and not the Ceremonial Laws which were no longer necessary because of Jesus' providing the everlasting sacrifice – Himself, the Lamb of God.
And, yet, the difference between the "Moral Laws" and "Ceremonial Laws" are merely semantical. There was no overt distinction, not even in the Bible. Acts 15 does not repeal part of the Mosaic Law; it repeals all of it, minus three obsolete provisions that were never enforced even in the days of the New Testament. But if you'd like to start, I'd suggest cutting out all forms of poultry first, since they likely fall under the concept of "strangled animals."

Regardless, the supposed anti-gay provisions in the Old Testament are all part of the "Purity Codes," which are, traditionally, attributed as being the "Ceremonial Laws." The giveaway is in the Hebrew word, "toe'vah," which signifies a ritual taboo. This word is grossly mistranslated as "abomination."

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Old 06-30-2006, 08:08 PM   #40
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Read the Epic of Gilgamesh. The flood narrative in the Bible is the same story, except whoever wrote the Bible's version added a moral twist and decided to specify the dimensions of the ark. There may have been a period of rain and some flooding, but it probably didn't happen, but that doesn't matter because it's not the point of the narrative.
Well, and that's it. Portions of the Old Testament are great at ripping off of concepts from their "pagan" neighbors. The OT concept of "an eye for an eye" conveniently finds its place in Babylonian law too.

A legend is a legend, after all, but this one likely has an indirect historical basis. It's believed that these flood myths all originated from the catastrophic event that created the Black Sea more than 5,000 years ago. This is where archaeological evidence can offer proof, where there's evidence of human civilization more than 500 feet deep in the sea.

Of course, no one has really ever looked at the logic of the event, which is impossible. If all that water flooded the Earth, where did it go? The water we have now is the same amount we've had for over six billion years. If we had been flooded, all that water would still be here.

And that's the case for the Black Sea too: an epic catastrophe that drowned a large area below sea level with over 500 feet of water that's still there today. But, honestly, it's just quite amazing how long that event remained in oral tradition before it became a written myth.

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Old 06-30-2006, 08:20 PM   #41
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Seriously, how many thousands of years will it take before people get the hint that the Noah's Ark story (and many, many in the Old Testament) is a narrative, a myth. I think the comparisons between the Great Flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh and our Christian flood narrative are far more useful and interesting than these hopeless archeological pursuits.
Conversely, how many years will it takes for people to realize that what they learn in college for the first time may not be truth? Seriously, how is it beyond God for the story of Noah to occur? If your method of interpretation allows free form re-writing or out-right dismissal of stories (since you can reduce them to myths or allow re-writes as with David & Goliath), where does it stop? Why on earth would someone believe you when you speak of the resurrection as truth (relying on Scripture), when you can take another passage of Scripture and toss it aside as myth?

Despite the ridiculing of the story of Noah, I believe AEON (thanks for sticking around here, you didn’t get the warmest of welcomes) captures my thoughts on the general topic of these “discoveries”. Since faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see, the presentation of such artifacts (or other relics) is of little value.
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Old 06-30-2006, 08:29 PM   #42
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Conversely, how many years will it takes for people to realize that what they learn in college for the first time may not be truth? Seriously, how is it beyond God for the story of Noah to occur? If your method of interpretation allows free form re-writing or out-right dismissal of stories (since you can reduce them to myths or allow re-writes as with David & Goliath), where does it stop? Why on earth would someone believe you when you speak of the resurrection as truth (relying on Scripture), when you can take another passage of Scripture and toss it aside as myth?
Because not everyone's Christian beliefs are predicated on Biblical fundamentalism. As such, whether it be creation myths or flood myths, they are generally seen as having no bearing on one's faith in Jesus.

But, apparently, it takes many centuries, if not longer, for people to realize that part of what's in the Bible may be nothing more than a cultural myth, making the Jewish people no different from any of their ancient contemporaries and their respective creation and flood myths.

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Old 06-30-2006, 08:33 PM   #43
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Iran eh?

maybe this is a scheme by the Bush admin to give them a reason to invade there.

"GWB: Recovering the Lost Ark."

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Old 06-30-2006, 08:39 PM   #44
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"history became legend, legend became myth." (sorry Peter Jackson.)

Personally, I think a myth is a true story that has been passed down among living descendants, embekllished or NOT embellished in the long course of the telling, depending on the scale of the catastrophe or type of story. That so many cultures around the world *have* a Flood story is proof of its authenticity. Time passes and local twists of flavor are woven in. But the kernel of it is true.

For me, it's relative, but not much. For example, I'm one of those Christians who believes that the world was created in 6 days, ago, but each "day" was several hundred million years long, since such a epochal period of time is but a blink of God's Eye. And in such a time, the fossil record is perfectly accurate..as is stages of Evolution, Adam and Eve being the final successful stage of His human tinkering. As I also beleive that the father would choose to debut Jesus in the way He did (born of a Virgin, etc, b/c He's been studying other pagan stories and wanted to make Jesus accessible....try that one on for size....if Jesus was similar to Osiris, it may not have been an accident...but with Jesus there was *just* "something more" that made HIm the end of the story...
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:08 PM   #45
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Originally posted by melon


And, yet, the difference between the "Moral Laws" and "Ceremonial Laws" are merely semantical. There was no overt distinction, not even in the Bible. Acts 15 does not repeal part of the Mosaic Law; it repeals all of it, minus three obsolete provisions that were never enforced even in the days of the New Testament. But if you'd like to start, I'd suggest cutting out all forms of poultry first, since they likely fall under the concept of "strangled animals."

Regardless, the supposed anti-gay provisions in the Old Testament are all part of the "Purity Codes," which are, traditionally, attributed as being the "Ceremonial Laws." The giveaway is in the Hebrew word, "toe'vah," which signifies a ritual taboo. This word is grossly mistranslated as "abomination."

Melon
Without going into a long winded sidebar - an understanding of the NT "Book of Hebrews" gives a great overview of what we should take from the OT.

Might I suggest you read it tonight and get back to me. You can send a PM if you like or reply to my other thread - because I am not sure it relates to this discussion - but I would like to discuss it.
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