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Old 09-20-2004, 03:34 AM   #16
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nowadays i don't think something like this may happen again, we know what nazism can bring, even though there are still stupid groups of fanatics.
Well i think it can hapen again anytime in every country of the world.
It's easy for a charismatic person to tell the people that everything works wrong in their life is the guilt of a group which they hate anyway.
Of course it's not the same group everywhere in the world. In palestine it could still work with the jews, in america you'd have to take another group, 15 years ago it could have worked well with "the communists", today it might work with "Islam".
I was really scared how the conservative government bashed France before the Iraq-war and there was no outcry in the public, noone said "Shame on you - my government"
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:14 AM   #17
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I believe that the comparison between the Holocaust and that of the danger from political Islam is not apt. There is a serious danger from the Islamic world, it is a political ideology not muslims. The western world has been extremely tollerant of Muslims and have not reacted violently to all Muslims, the idea of there being a massive Islamophobia on par with the Nazi's treatment of the Jews seems to be an attempt to play the victim mentality to the full in order to make many an illogical argument based on emotion (This is directed towards organizations such as CAIR which have strong ties to terrorist organizations and from whom advocacy and support for enemy entities exists, this is documented events and not mindless heresay). How many times have people seen protest groups twist the Israeli / Arab conflict into a battle between glorious Arab nationalists and an evil Judenreich. It is truly sad because it is moral relativism that gets it there.

The French government engages in very dirty deals which are ignored by many. I think that there has to be a share of condemnation for any party which cuddles up to murderers. Somebody says "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" I will say "How about those French oil contracts with the Sudanese regime".
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:46 AM   #18
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sorry, my mistake

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Old 09-20-2004, 10:02 AM   #19
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Klaus
[B]

Well i think it can hapen again anytime in every country of the world.
It's easy for a charismatic person to tell the people that everything works wrong in their life is the guilt of a group which they hate anyway.


yeah, not to exclude. but since the second world war we western people have grown up in the so called welfare state, that's why i think there's surely less possibility to organize an authoritarian regime of the same seriousness like nazism or fascism. of course there are still authoritarian states in some parts of the world, but it's becoming tough for dictators, we're having a full democratization of nations which lived under dictatorship, (look at many south american nations for instance), now the asian states are having a convergence to democracy...............unfortunately the methods mattered(like it still does), but we know it's another question......
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Old 09-20-2004, 02:02 PM   #20
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right - and while the "so called welfare state" goes down chances for the extremists are on the rise
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Old 09-20-2004, 03:11 PM   #21
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Germany was a republic when Hitler rose to power.

Their economy was crap, but they were democratic.

I could see another Hitler rise to power, easily. Even in an affluent, democratic country. There's always someone to hate, and someone to benefit from it.

Look at Stalin. The Soviet Union was doing pretty well when he took power. But people still bought into his purges.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:17 PM   #22
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The Soviet union was not a democratic affluent state when Stalin murdered his way to power. In order to have any major shift to the left or right one needs a disenfranchised population, one who are so sick of their current system they will follow a strong-man leader even if it means surrendering their rights. It could happen in the US or any other country if the conditions changed enough, I do not see it happening any time soon because peoples living standards are still too high and it is still a pluralist liberal democracy.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:36 PM   #23
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so otherwise someone would become fascist? so we need a movie about hitler to avoid it? history speaks alone, you don't need a movie to show or imagine invisible human sides of someone who was against humanity, btw, fascismus doesn't exist anymore
fascism still exists pretty much and is on the rise. youre from milan, you should know about persons like the mussolini daughter. im not even gonna start about bossi or berlusconi.
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Old 09-20-2004, 11:53 PM   #24
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Old 09-21-2004, 03:34 AM   #25
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fascism still exists pretty much and is on the rise. youre from milan, you should know about persons like the mussolini daughter. im not even gonna start about bossi or berlusconi.

these are only fanatic rich people, they count nothing, in italy very few appreciate them. mussolini's granddaughter created a party which is on the 0,1% of the votes, and it's her one. bossi was almost dying of an heart attack, he's ill, in his body and in his head, but he won't have power to change nothing, he's just a racist, he can't stand people of the south.........berlusconi is falling down, next election he's out, of course there are still fascism sympathizing, but no of the same seriuosness like the real hard times, they're isolated and are an absolute minor thing
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:40 PM   #26
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The Soviet union was not a democratic affluent state when Stalin murdered his way to power. In order to have any major shift to the left or right one needs a disenfranchised population, one who are so sick of their current system they will follow a strong-man leader even if it means surrendering their rights. It could happen in the US or any other country if the conditions changed enough, I do not see it happening any time soon because peoples living standards are still too high and it is still a pluralist liberal democracy.
Ah, when will I learn to put *all* the words in my post...
I didn't say the Soviet Union was democratic, but I can see where I might have led to that assumption. However, please pick up a Russian history textbook or one of the memoirs from the purges, such as "Into the Whirlwind" by Evgenia Ginzburg and you'll see what I'm getting at.

The 1920's-early to mid 1930's was actually a very successful period in the Soviet era, probably the only successful period. Lenin had introduced NEP, and voluntary collectivization. The economy boomed. For the *only* time in it's history, they actually had enough goods to export.

Art, music, literature were all very open. Lenin, Trotsky and Lunacharskii all recognized that artists were the pulse of a society, and art could not legitimately be in service to the state.
These were the years of great Russian cinema, when Sergei Eisenstein made some of his best films. Why do I bring this up--people had *money* to spend on art, books, and film tickets and the government was open to more discussion and dissention. It isn't the dictatorship we immediately think of. Was everything perfect? Of course not. But it's not the desperation and anger one finds in Weimer Germany, or anywhere a dictatorship would normally arise.

And then came Stalin. There was no economic shift. He simply announces one day that there's enemies within the Party, and he's going to institute purges. And people said "That sounds perfectly logical to me. Why, just yesterday, I heard my friend saying Lev Trotsky was a smart guy...." There was no social, economc or political reason to go along with it, but they did. It was collective madness. Yes, he did away with NEP and instituted the Five Year Plans, but the economy's collapse and the beginning of the purges don't exactly coincide.

Anyway, this is a huge digression.
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:42 PM   #27
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Originally posted by babyman



these are only fanatic rich people, they count nothing, in italy very few appreciate them. mussolini's granddaughter created a party which is on the 0,1% of the votes, and it's her one. bossi was almost dying of an heart attack, he's ill, in his body and in his head, but he won't have power to change nothing, he's just a racist, he can't stand people of the south.........berlusconi is falling down, next election he's out, of course there are still fascism sympathizing, but no of the same seriuosness like the real hard times, they're isolated and are an absolute minor thing
berlusconi got elected by a majority.

anyway, I hope you are right.
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Old 09-22-2004, 02:36 AM   #28
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:06 PM   #29
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41


Ah, when will I learn to put *all* the words in my post...
I didn't say the Soviet Union was democratic, but I can see where I might have led to that assumption. However, please pick up a Russian history textbook or one of the memoirs from the purges, such as "Into the Whirlwind" by Evgenia Ginzburg and you'll see what I'm getting at.

The 1920's-early to mid 1930's was actually a very successful period in the Soviet era, probably the only successful period. Lenin had introduced NEP, and voluntary collectivization. The economy boomed. For the *only* time in it's history, they actually had enough goods to export.

Art, music, literature were all very open. Lenin, Trotsky and Lunacharskii all recognized that artists were the pulse of a society, and art could not legitimately be in service to the state.
These were the years of great Russian cinema, when Sergei Eisenstein made some of his best films. Why do I bring this up--people had *money* to spend on art, books, and film tickets and the government was open to more discussion and dissention. It isn't the dictatorship we immediately think of. Was everything perfect? Of course not. But it's not the desperation and anger one finds in Weimer Germany, or anywhere a dictatorship would normally arise.

And then came Stalin. There was no economic shift. He simply announces one day that there's enemies within the Party, and he's going to institute purges. And people said "That sounds perfectly logical to me. Why, just yesterday, I heard my friend saying Lev Trotsky was a smart guy...." There was no social, economc or political reason to go along with it, but they did. It was collective madness. Yes, he did away with NEP and instituted the Five Year Plans, but the economy's collapse and the beginning of the purges don't exactly coincide.

Anyway, this is a huge digression.
One of the best (still not perfect ) concise descriptions of what happened in the USSR at the time I've ever heard from a foreigner.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:47 PM   #30
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Hitler did have a human side of course, but among all of the famous despots he seems unique in the degree to which his 'personal' life ceased to exist once he became a person of power.

I take the view that very evil people should never be compartmentalised by safely relegating them to 'monster' status. They are all human, unfortunately. And it could happen anywhere. German was an advanced industrial country with a middle class, that simply suffered the effects of losing a war of agression brought on by imperial overreach. In my view Britain was lucky to relinquish its empire without similar chaos.
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