Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria?

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Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?

  • Absolutely real

    Votes: 10 18.9%
  • Probably real

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life

    Votes: 8 15.1%
  • No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case.

    Votes: 28 52.8%
  • There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel?

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envel

    Votes: 6 11.3%

  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
Only God would know who has reached an age of accountablity.

And only God knows the whole story; how these 10 year olds were raised etc.

I remember hearing about that story and others like that; it makes one weep inside.

dbs
 
INDY500 said:


There are problems with such reductionism.

Can you explain the subjective experience of sensation (opposed to the objective sensing of a thermometer or photocell) using only the materialistic laws of chemistry and physics.
Your overlooking biology, a stimulus acting upon a receptor cell is where sensations come from. How the mind processes that information is what defines the experience - a good bit of evidence for this is how ones experiences can be altered chemically, drugs wouldn't work on an immaterial soul or consciousness.

Define free will mathematically as either compulsive "law" or "random" illogicalness.
Here is where neurology is going to answer a question of philosophy, the process of decision making and 'free will' is entering the domain of science, a proper theory of mind will be useful to those ends.

Explain why a computer can be built to reason but that it could never understand as a man can.
False statement, whether a computer could simulate a human mind or an equivalent intelligence is not neccessarily impossible - the brain is an organic computer.

Write a moral code without eternal absolute standards.
A moral code is built on the gut instincts of the human animal, it is not set to an absolute universal standard but the advantageous behaviours to keep the tribe going (murdering kin is bad, raping kin is bad, deceiving kin is bad). A humane code of ethics built around mutual consent as sentient beings engaged in a society is more applicable but it has no actual meaning to the universe. No matter how much people may want God to punish people that do them wrong it isn't going to happen, and lying to yourselves cannot make it the case.

And finally can you demystify how this all came about, how unconsciousness evolved into self-consciousness.
The minds big bang is a tricky subject, but the way that our homonid genes are used is what makes us human, tricky questions are intensive; and what glimmers of answers there are today point to a material cause in human biology; a driving factor seems to be society and specifically competition for mates.

Don't get me wrong, science should be materialistic in it's approach, but maybe scientific truth is not the whole truth.
Maybe free will and rational intellect are spiritual faculties...the soul of a man
Free will is not a certainty, intelligence is not unique to humanity (in the broad sense - as humans are most adept) and even if we feel that there should be some universal goalpost or somebody out there it doesn't make it the case.
 
diamond said:


That's a lazy way man's out.
More and more empirical evidence surfaces each day.

Demonic possession is real, the same with mental illness; sometimes people have both.

Spiritual denial trumps all of them though, but God allows this, it's part of His plan. He wont intercede into man exercising their own free will; unless you ask him-and if it's his will he will incercede to give a person guidance, protection or personal revelation.

In the meantime keep on continuing to search for your "missing link" and when you come up empty-we'll still be here.

;)

God bless.

:)

dbs
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms - you haven't quantified what a demon is, their life cycles, their biology, how they control a mind, how they infect a mind, how exorcism works etc. The facts that people can behave in strange ways is better explained by the theory of mental illness than by the demon hypothesis.
 
sulawesigirl4 said:
hey, isn't that devil picture from an episode of Doctor Who? Seems like I just saw that a few weeks ago.

Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :)
 
doctorwho said:


Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :)

Good to hear from you John.

I'm pleased that only half of the respondents in the poll disagree with me.

Several notable, credible scientists have came forward and aligned their views similar to yours.

And that doesn't dismiss the idea and theory of evolution either; essentially the consenus is that both exist and the scripture shouldn't be taken as literal in some places where fundementalists insist that it should be.

Moreover the majority of Drs and Hospice workers all agree that there is something tanagible and real beyond this life and there are good and evil spheres. It's in a whole different demension and right now we're more or less living in a very rudimentary existence compared to where we're headed.

Some of the best books of the existence of the After Life are:

Dr Raymond Moody's "Life After Life"
Dr George Ritchie's "Return from Tomorrow"
Mary Eadie's "Embraced By The Light".
 
Majority opinion is for politics, not science, the facts speak for themselves; consciousness is rooted in a functioning brain - when the brain ceases to function consciousness ends.
 
Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.

Honestly, I've never seen anyone with my own eyes who were supposedly possessed, so I don't feel the same gravity of this as those who have, but I've heard some things that I couldn't explain. Voting in this one is a bit tough.
 
A_Wanderer said:
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms -

Tiktaalik, is that the one from near the Arctic circle near Canada?
Fish to mammal?

If that's it, I saw a special on PBS about it and it blew my fucking mind.

That link is filling up fast.

Once you see it displayed so elegantly, it's astonishingly clear.

There was also a recent episode about the winged dinosaur.
Microraptor? Amazing.

I don't think this destroys a creation model altogether but it sure does decimate standard literal dogma.
 
Fish to amphibian (one of many - including the living cousin of tetrapods the Coelacanth), the transitional fossils to mammals are from the early synapsids.

Evolution is not a directed process, every animal alive today fills some ecological niche and characters that serve specific functions today may have served radically different functions in their ancestors - this a product of heritable variation and it is really cool.

The theory (as in the best fitting model to explain the evidence) of evolution destroys special creation, it explains the origination of new species and renders a creator superfluous (theistic evolution as much as it reconciles theology to reality is still impressing a deity upon a process that demands no overarching controller).

To tie this back to the topic at hand (alleged demonic possession) the explanation for strange behaviour as satanic influence is also introducing an unneccessary element to an explainable phenomena. Mental illness and hypnotic suggestion are better explanations than an effectively impossible supernatural agent somehow siezing control of people. It beggars belief that people can live in the modern world, accept the benefits of science and modern medicine yet still subscribe to an extreme of illogical superstition (belief in God is majority approved moderate illogical superstition). On the other hand Christians that think it isn't real are letting their reasoning inform their religion - is somebody who's religion informs their reasoning to a greater degree a stronger believer, of more faith than someone that questions the literal word of God?
 
LemonMelon said:
Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.

Look back around page 8, INDY already asked this and some folks already answered this.
 
LemonMelon said:
Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.

melon said:
Many years back, I had a Catholic high school religion teacher that taught us that the New Testament, as written, was probably apt to legend and exaggeration. That is, Jesus, His core teachings, His gift to humanity....all true. The details beyond that? Apt to the exaggerations of legend. In this case, I imagine my old teacher answering your question here as this being part of the mythos of Jesus, rather than the historical Jesus.

That aside, my main skepticism on issues of demon possession have everything to do with what I described before. Those who are under pathologically unhealthy levels of guilt and stress can quite thoroughly convince themselves that they are "possessed." There have likely been those in similar situations who have thoroughly convinced themselves that they are the "Antichrist," and, as such, have committed crimes in that role. Similar scenarios have been described during the era of the Salem Witch Trials regarding witches. It's not a coincidence that all these "witch sightings" disappeared after people stopped believing that they existed, and there were quite a few highly distressed women who caved in and openly confessed that they were, indeed, witches!

In terms of reconciling that fact with what's written in the New Testament...well, I don't claim to know everything, and, thankfully, I don't think it has any bearing on Jesus' moral teachings. I'll defer again to Romans 13:8: "Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law." I figure that there's some mystery in life worth having; otherwise, things would probably get boring.

The same thing, in a way, goes for "leprosy." The modern bacterial infection that is "leprosy" today is not the same as the Jewish Tzaraath, which is really what they're talking about in the Bible. "Tzaraath" probably referred to any visible skin affliction, from acne to psoriasis to cellulitis.
 
anybody with tourette's syndrome

was most likely labeled possessed



and the "evil spirits" could be quickly removed by praying
anytime they reappeared.
 
Isn't the "point" of those stories more that people who are suffering deserve compassion and help, rather than stigmatization and persecution, anyway? :shrug: As opposed to the idea that we should all be living in dread of the power of 'Evil.'
 
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yolland said:
Isn't the "point" of those stories more that people who are suffering deserve compassion and help, rather than stigmatization and persecution, anyway? :shrug: As opposed to the idea that we should all be living in dread of the power of 'Evil.'



some people desperately need the devil to exist.
 
deep said:
anybody with tourette's syndrome

was most likely labeled possessed



and the "evil spirits" could be quickly removed by praying
anytime they reappeared.

Not now.

Not accurate.

Moses had a speech impediment with stuttering, nobody accused him of being possesed by a devil, he was called of God and he kicked Pharoahs backside who dealt from the darkside.

So there.

But I guess some of you think that Moses was a fictious character and never led God's chosen people out of Egypt, correct?

:)

dbs
 
yolland said:
Isn't the "point" of those stories more that people who are suffering deserve compassion and help, rather than stigmatization and persecution, anyway?

that was Mother Teresa's story

all the scriptures end with the person no longer being "possessed", "evil", "sick" or even "dead".


a denial of realty?

myths
fables
tales
....
scriptures?
 
The scriptures to some are labeled to be myths and fariy tales to asauge their own consciences I suspect.

:)

dbs
 
diamond said:



Moses had a speech impediment with stuttering, nobody accused him of being possesed by a devil, he was called of God and he kicked Pharoahs backside who dealt from the darkside.

So there.

But I guess some of you think that Moses was a fictious character and never led God's chosen people out of Egypt, correct?

:)

dbs

Since I am not one of the chosen people and neither are you


We should defer to an Israeli researcher for the truth about Moses

Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher

Mar 4 08:07 AM US/Eastern

High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.

Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.
 
Mmmm DMT :drool:

I would not have a spiritual experience; I am perfectly willing to put my mind where my mouth is.
 
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deep said:


that was Mother Teresa's story

all the scriptures end with the person no longer being "possessed", "evil", "sick" or even "dead".


a denial of realty?

myths
fables
tales
....
scriptures?
Was it compassion and want to help, or was it to see the suffering of Christ in the suffering of the dying (hence no pain medication in the houses for the dying).

People take different things away from the same scripture, even faithless nuns.
 
diamond said:
But I guess some of you think that Moses was a fictious character and never led God's chosen people out of Egypt, correct?

There's reasonable evidence that Moses was substantially mythical, actually.

For one, in spite of this all happening in an advanced civilization like that of ancient Egypt, there's no corresponding Egyptian records to back up what the Old Testament says.

Secondly, "Mosaic Law" bears more than a passing resemblance to Persian Zoroastrian "Purity Codes" themselves. The Book of Ezra, in the Old Testament, is the most explicit text showing Persian influence in the revival of Judaism. We see Persian king, Cyrus the Great, making pronouncements, as if he were Jewish himself, in spite of it being very well-known that Cyrus had a habit of taking a minority religion in his kingdom and changing it substantially to ensure loyalty to the Persian Empire. A famous example is what Cyrus did with the followers of Marduk. He first made an appeal that he believed in Marduk, then declared that he was Marduk, and, as "Marduk," destroyed the religion.

Regardless, Ezra 7 states something very interesting on this subject. Approximately 80 years after Cyrus permits the Jews to return to Jerusalem, King Artaxerxes I, by decree, puts Ezra in charge of Jerusalem's ecclesiastical and civil affairs. What would a Persian Zoroastrian king know about Judaism to make him more qualified than the existing Jewish priesthood?

[Artaxerxes I speaking] "As for you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God which is in your possession, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people in West-of-Euphrates, to all, that is, who know the laws of your God. Instruct those who do not know these laws. Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king, let strict judgment be executed upon him, whether death, or corporal punishment, or a fine on his goods, or imprisonment." - Ezra 7:25-26

It is thought by some scholars, thus, that, due to the lack of any evidence of Jewish enslavement in Egypt and the fact that all of our extant Old Testament texts are post-exilic in date, that the whole thing might be a parable. That is, with a Jewish community looking to rebuild from two centuries or so of exile from their homeland, the story of Moses, their escape from Egypt, and their conquering of Israel meant that they had all done this before. And with Mosaic Law being roughly equivalent to Zoroastrian religious law and God, now no longer resembling a typical Semitic angry warrior deity, but, instead, being a peaceful, loving, and benevolent God very much like the Zoroastrian supreme god, Ahura Mazda, they have achieved their ultimate goal of having a nation that they would not fear of rising up against them. Indeed, the Persian Empire is the only foreign state treated with gushing adoration in the Bible.

Of course, in a couple of centuries, Alexander the Great defeats the Persian Empire and consigns it to history. Thus begins the influence of the Greeks and eventually the Romans, both of whom are hated.
 
melon said:


There's reasonable evidence that Moses was substantially mythical, actually.




We should defer to an Israeli researcher for the truth about Moses

Some have a funny definition of the word "truth".

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

II Timothy Chap 4:4
 
diamond said:
Some have a funny definition of the word "truth".

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

II Timothy Chap 4:4

The least you could do is argue my points directly, rather than resorting to subjectively vague platitudes. 2 Timothy 4:4...it could easily be argued that modern Christians are living a faith of "fables" that have very little to do with the core teachings of Jesus. We judge Christians today on whether they believe in the most preposterous of writings--Adam and Eve, global floods, etc.--and, yet, look the other way when they contradict the most central tenet of Jesus--"Love one another." Indeed, many ministers would argue, more or less, that "hate" is an admirable trait.
 
melon said:

2 Timothy 4:4...it could easily be argued that modern Christians are living a faith of "fables" that have very little to do with the core teachings of Jesus. We judge Christians today on whether they believe in the most preposterous of writings--Adam and Eve, global floods, etc.--and, yet, look the other way when they contradict the most central tenet of Jesus--"Love one another." Indeed, many ministers would argue, more or less, that "hate" is an admirable trait.

Quoted for truth...
 
melon said:


more or less, that "hate" is an admirable trait.


Then they're going to the wrong church.

I'll respond to the other attempts of convenient scriptual spin when:

1-I have time
2-I feel it would be worth while.

dbs
 
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