Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria? - Page 22 - U2 Feedback

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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:14 PM   #316
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My belief is natural diasters are allowed to happen to see if we as God's children will help one another-long story short.



dbs
Every heard of Plate Tectonics regarding earthquakes

Thats another put of for me, science and faith just dont go.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:18 PM   #317
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yes, i've heard of it referred to in an abstract way yes.

one favor I ask, quit with the

diaoluge politely and if you're going to read the book, read it.

if not please don't ridicule believers with smilies.

thanks,

dbs
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:19 PM   #318
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Originally posted by diamond


I'm glad to hear you're going to read the book, it may change your mind or perspective.


God is not everywhere, but his influence is.

My belief is natural diasters are allowed to happen to see if we as God's children will help one another-long story short.

God is not sitting around shaking the world because he's mad however-Satan wants ppl to think that I believe to make worshipping God a turn off.

dbs
That is a disgusting loyalty test, a deity that actively or passively kills innocent people just to see how others react would not be worthy of respect let alone worship.

Why would it even need to kill so many people? Isn't it omniscient.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:23 PM   #319
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
That is a disgusting loyalty test, a deity that actively or passively kills innocent people just to see how others react would not be worthy of respect let alone worship.

Why would it even need to kill so many people? Isn't it omniscient.
I think that the christian god is essentially a largely malevolent but not entirely omnipotent deity.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:25 PM   #320
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Originally posted by diamond

one favor I ask, quit with the

diaoluge politely and if you're going to read the book, read it.

if not please don't ridicule believers with smilies.

thanks,

dbs
Talk about hypocrisy...
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:27 PM   #321
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
That is a disgusting loyalty test, a deity that actively or passively kills innocent people just to see how others react would not be worthy of respect let alone worship.

Why would it even need to kill so many people? Isn't it omniscient.

If you have free will than it isn't loyality it's about choice.

I view God as a omnipotent being, letting us make choices and there for us if we elect to seek his guidance thru humility and prayer. I view God not as nebulus essence without body parts or passions occupying the endless boundries of outer space-the idea that Orthdox Christians teach thru the Niceane Creed.

People that have came back claim that God is much more like us than what Orthodox Christians promugate.

dbs
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:28 PM   #322
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Talk about hypocrisy...
Have I at any of your posts in this thread?

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Old 03-29-2008, 10:32 PM   #323
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No I don't. Certainly something that I argue is universal must be discoverable in many ways. Of coarse an atheist can live an ethical life.
However, you cannot deny that you somewhat piggyback on the Judeo-Christian traditions of the West and you live in a society where a transcendental morality or natural law is still taken for granted by the majority -- even if they don't associate it with organized religion.
And those moral conducts weren't invented by Christians either. Even in pre-Christian societies rules have been developed that were later taken up by Christians. And if you took a look at tribes still living a traditional life in e.g. the South Pacific region, who have never heard of Christianity, they all live a life many Christians (and non-Christians) could take a leaf out of their book.
Such a tribe is greatly explained by Karl Polanyi in his 1948 work The Great Transformation.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:34 PM   #324
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Originally posted by diamond


Have I at any of your posts in this thread?

dbs
No, you don't need to post a smilie in an attempt to ridicule other posters. And you are consistently trying to ridicule other posters. Your silly "kids" would be just one example.

And then you turn around and ask others to please not ridicule religious people.
How about approaching every poster with the same amount of respect you demand from us?
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:05 PM   #325
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Originally posted by diamond



If you have free will than it isn't loyality it's about choice.

I view God as a omnipotent being, letting us make choices and there for us if we elect to seek his guidance thru humility and prayer. I view God not as nebulus essence without body parts or passions occupying the endless boundries of outer space-the idea that Orthdox Christians teach thru the Niceane Creed.

People that have came back claim that God is much more like us than what Orthodox Christians promugate.

dbs
It is about you claiming God is killing people to see how you act, if you choose the path that he says you should by helping or rejecting it. I think that a God that does that is very dodgy indeed, and I question the morals of somebody that embraces the idea.

Do you think that it is acceptable for God to either allow or make terrible disasters happen because it lets some people do good deeds?
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:07 PM   #326
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


"kids"

?
Quote:
And you are consistently trying to ridicule other posters


Quote:
How about approaching every poster with the same amount of respect you demand from us?
I haven't "demanded" anything from anybody only requested.


It seems you're trying to pick a fight by the argumentive tone in your last 2 posts and I hope you would keep the convesation congenial, as most people have through out the 15 pages of this thread.


I thought I was amongst friends and could cajole and jostle with one another addressing them as "kids" on occassion.

dbs
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:14 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It is about you claiming God is killing people to see how you act, if you choose the path that he says you should by helping or rejecting it. I think that a God that does that is very dodgy indeed, and I question the morals of somebody that embraces the idea.

Do you think that it is acceptable for God to either allow or make terrible disasters happen because it lets some people do good deeds?
I never questioned your morals AWanderer.

I never said God is killing people, you have implied that.

I said he allows nature to run her course as to not interfere with our free will-this idea is outside the box of Orthodox Christianity.

I'm here on earth not to judge God's plan for us but only to do His will.

And from my studies following God's will is pleasing Him by being kind to all of his children regardless of their circumstance and to refrain from passing unnecessary judgement.

Reports from NDE substaniate this basic idea.



dbs
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:14 AM   #328
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In the end, I think we all believe what we want to believe.

I know I've said that before, but I'm just saying on this particular topic, it remains true as well.

I do find it puzzling though that many of my fellow believers discount demon possession. After all, what really is the difference between God and the devil--both are thoroughly unscientific, totally unprovable ideas. If you can't get comfortable with the unscientific nature of faith, then perhaps faith is not for you? I don't mean that to sound disrespectful in any way, I'm just wondering if there is a theological reason for disbelieving in demons--because for a person of faith, I don't see how the
"unscientific" nature of demons would be enough.
I think your first sentence goes a long way to answering your puzzlement over why some people believe in God but not demons or demonic possession. See I believe that people created gods and demons and such to explain what they couldn't explain in other ways. Early on they were trying to explain the sun rising or thunder etc., so their gods took care of all that. As humans progressed and figured out how the sun rose (and similar stuff) they no longer needed specific gods for all that, so they invented a mastermind/creator god (the good guy) and an equivalent devil/destroyer (the bad guy), to explain the still unexplained.

I believe as humans overall learn more about our world and become increasingly adept at abstract thought we are needing gods and devils less and less. But it isn't something that happens overnight, just as I imagine the ancient Egyptians didn't suddenly one day say "oh look, we were silly to believe in these gods. Let's not believe in them anymore" and just stop. They were replaced over time, much as I expect over time the gods people now worship will be replaced with increasingly sophisticated ones as the population finds the old ones no longer do the job. During this change -- this evolution -- some parts of the belief system will fall away sooner than others.

And that's where I think your "we all believe what we want to believe" comment fits. I think the concept of god is appealing to people because most people do like the idea they are special (god created you) and that someone powerful and caring is there for them. The devil isn't quite so cuddly, so a lot of people have already given him the boot. They are both unscientific -- it's just that people want to believe in god, whereas they don't want to believe in demons.
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Old 03-30-2008, 01:41 AM   #329
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I think maycocksean first sentence speaks to free will and we don't realize as humans the full effect that it can have.

With the mis use of free will a Hitler can rise up, along with a Stalin and God will not intercede. Free will carries with it wonderful blessings or dire consequences.


Like nuclear energy-it can kill millions or light up a beautiful city.

Free will can have ppl believing and changing the definition of God to please their latest whims or completely dismissing of God's existence or ppl accepting that there is a God who is good and benevolent much to Satan's chagrin.

I could go on for days about free will and it's positive and negative influencess, blessings and consequences, but I will exercise my free will not to lecture the beauty and necessity of it for our growth as a human family.

dbs
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:13 PM   #330
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I think your first sentence goes a long way to answering your puzzlement over why some people believe in God but not demons or demonic possession. See I believe that people created gods and demons and such to explain what they couldn't explain in other ways. Early on they were trying to explain the sun rising or thunder etc., so their gods took care of all that. As humans progressed and figured out how the sun rose (and similar stuff) they no longer needed specific gods for all that, so they invented a mastermind/creator god (the good guy) and an equivalent devil/destroyer (the bad guy), to explain the still unexplained.

I believe as humans overall learn more about our world and become increasingly adept at abstract thought we are needing gods and devils less and less. But it isn't something that happens overnight, just as I imagine the ancient Egyptians didn't suddenly one day say "oh look, we were silly to believe in these gods. Let's not believe in them anymore" and just stop. They were replaced over time, much as I expect over time the gods people now worship will be replaced with increasingly sophisticated ones as the population finds the old ones no longer do the job. During this change -- this evolution -- some parts of the belief system will fall away sooner than others.

And that's where I think your "we all believe what we want to believe" comment fits. I think the concept of god is appealing to people because most people do like the idea they are special (god created you) and that someone powerful and caring is there for them. The devil isn't quite so cuddly, so a lot of people have already given him the boot. They are both unscientific -- it's just that people want to believe in god, whereas they don't want to believe in demons.
I suppose that's true. But for a believer to use the "demons are unscientific" argument is still disingenuous though.

I think most arguements about belief or lack thereof tend towards the disingenuous though, because no one, whether believer or atheist, wants to admitt that none of us can really prove a damn thing in the end, and that what we want to believe really carries a lot more weight than we want to admitt. How often do you meet a believer who says, "Ugh, God is awful, but. . .I am compelled by the evidence of his imperious working in my life to believe that He is real." How often do you meet an atheist who says "Wow, the concept of God is so wonderful and beautiful. . .and yet I am forced to disbelieve because the evidence against his existence is too strong."

I think the former type of believer (one who believes grudgingly in a horrible God) was more common years ago when people attributed things they couldn't explain to God. People back then may have believed in God because they had no other "option." But even then, explanations were not (and still are not) the core reason for religious faith. It's a common misrepresentation of belief that it's all about explaining natural events that we have no scientific explaintion for. That is an element of belief but I don't think it is the core of belief. The core has everything to do with our mortality and our unwillingness to accept it. Look at the egyptians. . .their faith was consumed with the after life--the pyramids, the mummification of the dead etc--these things werent' about explaining why the sun comes up and the nile floods. I think it's a mistake to think that religion will disappear with scientific progress because the core questions of faith are not scientific questions.
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