Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria? - Page 18 - U2 Feedback

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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:18 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond



There is a Divine moral law along with natural laws, however human free will trumps both.


Even Jeffery Dahmer admitted he had a choice, saying in court that even if his genetic code ingrained in him caused him to do the evil acts he did, he also made conscious choices and felt bad for the choices he made.

dbs
But these types of people cannot empathise, of course people have a choice in behaviour but lacking a concience, lacking empathy, that blame either rests on a defective brain or God.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:11 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But these types of people cannot empathise, of course people have a choice in behaviour but lacking a concience, lacking empathy, that blame either rests on a defective brain or God.
There was a time in their lives when they could. Given environmental and emotional conditions their situation became toxic, and they reacted the wrong way although they still had their free will.

If Jeffery Dahmer were raised by loving nurturing attentive parents he would of had a better chance, and chances are he would have never became a serial killer. However, his free will still trumps the environment he was raised in.

Have you ever read the books:

"Man's Search for Meaning"
By Victor Frankl ?

or

"A Child Called It"
By David Pelzer ?


Both of these books deal with overcoming your unchosen environment and the importance of free will and choices.

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Old 03-27-2008, 07:35 AM   #258
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A psychopath raised in a well off family may well not become a murderer; politicians, police and executives also attract the amoral. You act as though free will is an independent characteristic of humanity; I am saying that what we consider to be free will is the capacity to make choices and that is dependent on the way that our minds work which is a product of biology and how that is shaped by the environment.

Your theology seems to demand that bad people are just the product of bad choices by their free will. We do have the power of choice; but the way that choice is rooted in our biology. You can't teach a mind empathy if it lacks the correct wiring. You can't claim that somebody that cannot feel any emotion for other people is making the same types of decisions as you or I. It does not abbrogate responsibility of murderers, it does show the problem of having God be involved in designing everybody and that our free will is always conditional.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:56 AM   #259
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by A_Wanderer
.

Quote:
You act as though free will is an independent characteristic of humanity; .
That's exactly right, it's an inherent right that we wanted and granted by God before we came to earth. Satan didn't want us to have free will. God granted us free will and sent Jesus and Prophets to help guide us, for us not to live in total darkness and instilled each of us with a conscience to help guide us and develop faith. Satan on the other hand who wanted glory and power has tried to supplant that idea ever since our creation and for this he was booted out of Heaven, along with 1/3 of it's hosts (his followers) and wasn't allowed to come to earth and learn free will. Satan doesn't know the mind of God and didn't know that God was going to send Christ into the world, as a safety net and for us to exercise our own free will to choose right over wrong, good over evil, love over lust etc. Satan was used in God's plan as a 2nd teir actor and he is is pissed and miserable.
Satan tries to entice mankind with power, fame, addictions and other earth bound schemes and tendencies that derail us from the spiritual to the carnal. Eventually he will lose and be cast off forever when God's plan is complete.



Quote:
We do have the power of choice; but the way that choice is rooted in our biology
Biology plays a role but free will still trumps gentic make up.

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Old 03-27-2008, 12:31 PM   #260
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Originally posted by Irvine511


how do you know? honestly. how do you know if demons are polite or not? most people don't think they exist, there's absolutely no proof whatsoever of the existence of a demon, how can you not only assume that they exist but have actual marked characteristics.

i feel like this goes a step beyond faith and well into superstition.

i mean this as an honest question.
From my own experience with demons and the demon-possessed, I can quite honestly say that there are paranoid schizophrenics, there are people who are insane, there are people with multiple personality disorders -- and then there is something else much, much darker.

The forcible taking over of another human being is hardly polite, and the fact that so many stories in scripture of encounters between Jesus and demonized people include the demons inside the person howling about how they won't let the person go, is a sign of the fact that God exists in freedom/free will (ie., we are free to choose him or not, reject him or not), while the devil wants to remove such freedom altogether.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:33 PM   #261
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so it does come down to a belief from scripture. that's where the explanation for such behavior comes from? it fits certain criteria already laid out in the Bible, thus, we have demon possession?

do people who don't believe in demons get possessed by demons?
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:13 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


do people who don't believe in demons get possessed by demons?
very rarely.

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Old 03-27-2008, 01:45 PM   #263
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Originally posted by diamond


very rarely.

dbs


which is to say ... never?

doesn't that say something?

and i have to pause every time i post in here, since i feel like we're debating something that's on equal ground as Bigfoot, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, and poltergeists.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:58 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and i have to pause every time i post in here, since i feel like we're debating something that's on equal ground as Bigfoot, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, and poltergeists.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:18 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




which is to say ... never?

doesn't that say something?

and i have to pause every time i post in here, since i feel like we're debating something that's on equal ground as Bigfoot, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, and poltergeists.
No...rarely.

It depends where a person would fall into the matrix of things, what their actions have been, what choices they've made, what God's plan was for them.

Consider the man Saul who later became the Apostle Paul.

In our era former Satan worshippers after turning from Satan towards God are reaaaally harrassed, because Satan hates losing a team member; my speculation based on research.

As far as BigFoot, Saswquatch, Loch Ness-I have my own theories and those have to do with more products of group hysteria.

Poltergeists episodes would come from the dark side-my opinion from researching it.

UFOs-I feel they probably exisit but they have nothing to do with mankind's salvation.

Did I make myself clear?

dbs
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:30 PM   #266
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so it does come down to a belief from scripture. that's where the explanation for such behavior comes from? it fits certain criteria already laid out in the Bible, thus, we have demon possession?
It makes sense that when you are confronted with unexplained phenomena, some kind of explanation for the phenomena should be sought out.

I'm not one to look for demons under every rock, and I do think there are scientific explanations for specific issues (such as multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, dementia, etc). But I do think there are certain instances where scientific or medical explanations come up short.

The Vatican has come up with a few very specific situations where demon-possession is addressed, and I think they do a credible job of assessing any such situation before stepping in and deciding that it is so. (Not sure if this holds true in cases of demon-possession, but I know that in other cases of spiritual phenomena they'll dispatch an atheist, a Jewish rabbi, a priest, and a lay person to assess the situation.)
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:15 PM   #267
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Did I make myself clear?



no. you conflate things, pull out faith as fact, and present opinion as explanation.

but it's entertaining.
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:15 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




which is to say ... never?

doesn't that say something?

and i have to pause every time i post in here, since i feel like we're debating something that's on equal ground as Bigfoot, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, and poltergeists.
from page 1

of 18 pages

Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Demons are as real as

ghosts

angels

spirits

E T aliens

dreams - having meanings

visions

revelations

and the one thing that every victim of a con has in common with all others?


they have to buy into to the con

hence,
non-believers do not get possessed by demons
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:16 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


It makes sense that when you are confronted with unexplained phenomena, some kind of explanation for the phenomena should be sought out.

I'm not one to look for demons under every rock, and I do think there are scientific explanations for specific issues (such as multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, dementia, etc). But I do think there are certain instances where scientific or medical explanations come up short.



i can agree with you right up to this point.
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:40 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

and the one thing that every victim of a con has in common with all others?


they have to buy into to the con

hence,
non-believers do not get possessed by demons
Bingo!

Rimbaud said it well in his "Night in Hell":

Quote:
I believe I am in Hell, therefore I am. This is the catechism at work. I am the slave of my baptism. You, my parents, have ruined my life, and your own. Poor child! - Hell is powerless against pagans.
Works for demons too.
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