Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria? - Page 16 - U2 Feedback

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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:50 PM   #226
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Yes, I've actually read a great deal of Lewis' work, both fiction and non-fiction. He's a great writer and an interesting philosopher.

I haven't come to have these views in an uninformed way. In fact, the more I learn, the stronger they become.
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:54 PM   #227
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You seem very educated.
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:56 PM   #228
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This practicing Catholic doesn't believe in exorcists.
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:59 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


True about the mental illness part we agree.
I think there can be a combination of both also.


Vintage Punk have you ever read this book?



It was written by a brilliant educated man and former athetist, turned believer and rings true with many people.

If you haven't it's a great read.

dbs
We had that in the library.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:02 PM   #230
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Originally posted by diamond
You seem very educated.
Thanks. It's all relative. Like Bono said, "the more you see, the less you know." How true. The more you learn sometimes, the more you realize how much more there is to learn.

I've enjoyed reading your point of view, as well. I'm glad that this thread has remained a civil exchange of ideas and viewpoints, and has not denigrated into insults, as discussions of religious matters often do when you have people with opposing viewpoints discussing.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:41 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


We had that in the library.
Verte-

I've giving reading assignmets before.

Add that one to your list.



dbs
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:48 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Thanks. It's all relative. Like Bono said, "the more you see, the less you know." How true. The more you learn sometimes, the more you realize how much more there is to learn.

Bono also said this about Christ and his divine nature:

"Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: He was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says, No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: 'I'm the Messiah....' "

Bono believes in Christ, His divine nature and it appears that Bono doesn't like to overly emphasize the devil nor his existence-which is wise.

dbs
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Old 03-21-2008, 07:23 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond




God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.



dbs
So he comes uninvited.
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Old 03-21-2008, 07:45 PM   #234
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Based on a person actions, thinking and activities dictates the God he has chosen to serve whether it be conscious or unconscious.

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Old 03-21-2008, 07:54 PM   #235
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Surely all this god talk is covering people ignorance, because they dont really know the answers to why we are here and what created the universe.


If a god does a exist, he be mortified people are using his name to promote some sort of personal agenda ( im staring at you the Vatican ).
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:38 PM   #236
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For me there is no such thing. Should it exist, i.e. he, he should make damn sure to knock and asking for permission.
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:18 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Your overlooking biology, a stimulus acting upon a receptor cell is where sensations come from. How the mind processes that information is what defines the experience - a good bit of evidence for this is how ones experiences can be altered chemically, drugs wouldn't work on an immaterial soul or consciousness.

Partially true, we can never really know reality just, to use Kant's theory, experience phenomenons -- filtered through our own limited senses and familiarity. Drugs simply fool our brain into misreading information, a trick which can be accomplished with an optical illusion just as easily. That an artificial intelligence would never seek out or find pleasure in such temporary "confusion" only proves my point.
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Here is where neurology is going to answer a question of philosophy, the process of decision making and 'free will' is entering the domain of science, a proper theory of mind will be useful to those ends.
If what you say is true, I don't see why humans should be any different than an automatic coffeemaker as far as being able to exert free will. If the human brain is exclusively physical, why should a bundle of neurons in a skull be any more capable of rebelling against DNA programming than a microchip against it's?
Reduce our greatest thoughts and deepest desires to volts and grams if you choose.
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False statement, whether a computer could simulate a human mind or an equivalent intelligence is not neccessarily impossible - the brain is an organic computer.
A organic computer whose atoms are constantly being replaced. You don't have the "same" brain you had as a child, yet you retain memories, traits and a feeling of being the "same" person. How can the atoms change but the thoughts remain?
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A moral code is built on the gut instincts of the human animal, it is not set to an absolute universal standard but the advantageous behaviours to keep the tribe going (murdering kin is bad, raping kin is bad, deceiving kin is bad). A humane code of ethics built around mutual consent as sentient beings engaged in a society is more applicable but it has no actual meaning to the universe.
Without an external standard; truth, right and wrong are all subjective. How then do you write a moral code that is binding on others if they choose not to acknowledge said code?
By what authority unless a universal authority?

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The minds big bang is a tricky subject, but the way that our homonid genes are used is what makes us human, tricky questions are intensive; and what glimmers of answers there are today point to a material cause in human biology; a driving factor seems to be society and specifically competition for mates.
I think you will find it hard to prove that, by natural selection alone, a gene can evolve that benefits a large population to the disadvantage of the individual.
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Free will is not a certainty, intelligence is not unique to humanity (in the broad sense - as humans are most adept)
One constant in the science fiction of the past 100 years is the extent to which the humanization of artificial intelligence has been wrongly predicted. From Metropolis to the androids of Westworld to 2001's HAL (to name a few), they have all confused knowledge and logic with the uniquely human faculties of understanding and reasoning.
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:53 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

On the plus side insistence on demonic possession does make it so much easier to ridicule Christians.
It's just as easy to ridicule modern psychiatry as scientific medicine. My guess is demonic possession will become recognized as an actual illness shortly after some drug company starts marketing a "cure."

Beelzerub, apply directly to the soul.
Beelzerub, apply directly to the soul.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:56 AM   #239
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Dismissing Freudian thinking as unscientific pseudoscience is exactly what happened, that does not affirm demonic possession as a reasonably plausible explanation for human behaviour. Psychology on the other hand is opening up that doorway, and it ridiculing it is not the same as ridiculing people who believe that outside actors invade and control human behaviour (at least ones that aren't actual parasites that exist in the real world).

Optical illusions are not the same as hallucinations, but the fact that the processing of information is altered chemically validates the idea that the mind is material. Pushing it further into the level of ego death or the K-hole should highlight that there is no duality between conciousness and the material brain; they are one and the same.

Your rebuttal has the implicit assumptions about what constitutes an artificial intelligence and what sort of reward system it may engage in. You assume that an artificial intelligence would be incapable of finding gratification or pleasure - something that drugs do for people. That an artificial intelligence would be a calculator without the capacity for some form of morality is an assumption.

That is important, as the universe doesn't care about you or morality in general. But moral behaviour is advantageous for a social animal. We are wired for it, but when we behave in general there is the acceptance of rules so we can engage with society. They are conditions of entry, if you can't abide by them then the society will exclude you (banishment and incarceration being two examples). That they are subjective does not make them meaningless, that they are not universal does not mean that we should act as we please. I enjoy the benefits of society, I have a general aversion to rape and murdering people on the street and I get along fine. The argument that civil society and good behaviour only exist because of God seems to have the corollary that in the inexistence of God would destroy society and people would have no cause to be good. I very much hope that most God fearing Christians could engage in society without God telling them to be good . Moral codes are the products of societies, they are not a function of the universe, any sentience that wants to engage with others in a "society" will accept and comply by mutually agreed rules of behaviour even though they are not handed down from God.

As for evolving a society tribal structures benefit members, the odds of survival improve by being part of a tribe versus being a loner, the genes that you have will be pretty common among your kin, tribes are composed of related individuals so things that are to the benefit of the tribe are to the benefit of common genetic material. Competition within a tribal structure demands power, that demands intelligence (to rise to the top, to understand the motivations and goings on of others, to get mates) and there is a constant pressure that means the smarter had more kids and that effect was compounded over tens of thousands of years.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:58 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
For me there is no such thing. Should it exist, i.e. he, he should make damn sure to knock and asking for permission.
Rev. 3:23 -- Jesus says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door, I will go in to eat with him, and he with me."

Demons, unfortunately, are rarely as polite.
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