Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria? - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-16-2008, 04:16 PM   #151
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Only God would know who has reached an age of accountablity.

And only God knows the whole story; how these 10 year olds were raised etc.

I remember hearing about that story and others like that; it makes one weep inside.

dbs
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Old 03-16-2008, 08:27 PM   #152
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Originally posted by INDY500
[B]

There are problems with such reductionism.

Can you explain the subjective experience of sensation (opposed to the objective sensing of a thermometer or photocell) using only the materialistic laws of chemistry and physics.
Your overlooking biology, a stimulus acting upon a receptor cell is where sensations come from. How the mind processes that information is what defines the experience - a good bit of evidence for this is how ones experiences can be altered chemically, drugs wouldn't work on an immaterial soul or consciousness.

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Define free will mathematically as either compulsive "law" or "random" illogicalness.
Here is where neurology is going to answer a question of philosophy, the process of decision making and 'free will' is entering the domain of science, a proper theory of mind will be useful to those ends.

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Explain why a computer can be built to reason but that it could never understand as a man can.
False statement, whether a computer could simulate a human mind or an equivalent intelligence is not neccessarily impossible - the brain is an organic computer.

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Write a moral code without eternal absolute standards.
A moral code is built on the gut instincts of the human animal, it is not set to an absolute universal standard but the advantageous behaviours to keep the tribe going (murdering kin is bad, raping kin is bad, deceiving kin is bad). A humane code of ethics built around mutual consent as sentient beings engaged in a society is more applicable but it has no actual meaning to the universe. No matter how much people may want God to punish people that do them wrong it isn't going to happen, and lying to yourselves cannot make it the case.

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And finally can you demystify how this all came about, how unconsciousness evolved into self-consciousness.
The minds big bang is a tricky subject, but the way that our homonid genes are used is what makes us human, tricky questions are intensive; and what glimmers of answers there are today point to a material cause in human biology; a driving factor seems to be society and specifically competition for mates.

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Don't get me wrong, science should be materialistic in it's approach, but maybe scientific truth is not the whole truth.
Maybe free will and rational intellect are spiritual faculties...the soul of a man
Free will is not a certainty, intelligence is not unique to humanity (in the broad sense - as humans are most adept) and even if we feel that there should be some universal goalpost or somebody out there it doesn't make it the case.
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Old 03-16-2008, 08:33 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


That's a lazy way man's out.
More and more empirical evidence surfaces each day.

Demonic possession is real, the same with mental illness; sometimes people have both.

Spiritual denial trumps all of them though, but God allows this, it's part of His plan. He wont intercede into man exercising their own free will; unless you ask him-and if it's his will he will incercede to give a person guidance, protection or personal revelation.

In the meantime keep on continuing to search for your "missing link" and when you come up empty-we'll still be here.



God bless.



dbs
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms - you haven't quantified what a demon is, their life cycles, their biology, how they control a mind, how they infect a mind, how exorcism works etc. The facts that people can behave in strange ways is better explained by the theory of mental illness than by the demon hypothesis.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:44 PM   #154
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hey, isn't that devil picture from an episode of Doctor Who? Seems like I just saw that a few weeks ago.
Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :-)
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:46 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by doctorwho


Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :-)
Good to hear from you John.

I'm pleased that only half of the respondents in the poll disagree with me.

Several notable, credible scientists have came forward and aligned their views similar to yours.

And that doesn't dismiss the idea and theory of evolution either; essentially the consenus is that both exist and the scripture shouldn't be taken as literal in some places where fundementalists insist that it should be.

Moreover the majority of Drs and Hospice workers all agree that there is something tanagible and real beyond this life and there are good and evil spheres. It's in a whole different demension and right now we're more or less living in a very rudimentary existence compared to where we're headed.

Some of the best books of the existence of the After Life are:

Dr Raymond Moody's "Life After Life"
Dr George Ritchie's "Return from Tomorrow"
Mary Eadie's "Embraced By The Light".
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:18 AM   #156
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Majority opinion is for politics, not science, the facts speak for themselves; consciousness is rooted in a functioning brain - when the brain ceases to function consciousness ends.
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:20 AM   #157
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:45 AM   #158
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:11 AM   #159
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Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.

Honestly, I've never seen anyone with my own eyes who were supposedly possessed, so I don't feel the same gravity of this as those who have, but I've heard some things that I couldn't explain. Voting in this one is a bit tough.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:21 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms -
Tiktaalik, is that the one from near the Arctic circle near Canada?
Fish to mammal?

If that's it, I saw a special on PBS about it and it blew my fucking mind.

That link is filling up fast.

Once you see it displayed so elegantly, it's astonishingly clear.

There was also a recent episode about the winged dinosaur.
Microraptor? Amazing.

I don't think this destroys a creation model altogether but it sure does decimate standard literal dogma.
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:41 AM   #161
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Fish to amphibian (one of many - including the living cousin of tetrapods the Coelacanth), the transitional fossils to mammals are from the early synapsids.

Evolution is not a directed process, every animal alive today fills some ecological niche and characters that serve specific functions today may have served radically different functions in their ancestors - this a product of heritable variation and it is really cool.

The theory (as in the best fitting model to explain the evidence) of evolution destroys special creation, it explains the origination of new species and renders a creator superfluous (theistic evolution as much as it reconciles theology to reality is still impressing a deity upon a process that demands no overarching controller).

To tie this back to the topic at hand (alleged demonic possession) the explanation for strange behaviour as satanic influence is also introducing an unneccessary element to an explainable phenomena. Mental illness and hypnotic suggestion are better explanations than an effectively impossible supernatural agent somehow siezing control of people. It beggars belief that people can live in the modern world, accept the benefits of science and modern medicine yet still subscribe to an extreme of illogical superstition (belief in God is majority approved moderate illogical superstition). On the other hand Christians that think it isn't real are letting their reasoning inform their religion - is somebody who's religion informs their reasoning to a greater degree a stronger believer, of more faith than someone that questions the literal word of God?
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:03 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.
Look back around page 8, INDY already asked this and some folks already answered this.
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:52 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.
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Originally posted by melon
Many years back, I had a Catholic high school religion teacher that taught us that the New Testament, as written, was probably apt to legend and exaggeration. That is, Jesus, His core teachings, His gift to humanity....all true. The details beyond that? Apt to the exaggerations of legend. In this case, I imagine my old teacher answering your question here as this being part of the mythos of Jesus, rather than the historical Jesus.

That aside, my main skepticism on issues of demon possession have everything to do with what I described before. Those who are under pathologically unhealthy levels of guilt and stress can quite thoroughly convince themselves that they are "possessed." There have likely been those in similar situations who have thoroughly convinced themselves that they are the "Antichrist," and, as such, have committed crimes in that role. Similar scenarios have been described during the era of the Salem Witch Trials regarding witches. It's not a coincidence that all these "witch sightings" disappeared after people stopped believing that they existed, and there were quite a few highly distressed women who caved in and openly confessed that they were, indeed, witches!

In terms of reconciling that fact with what's written in the New Testament...well, I don't claim to know everything, and, thankfully, I don't think it has any bearing on Jesus' moral teachings. I'll defer again to Romans 13:8: "Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law." I figure that there's some mystery in life worth having; otherwise, things would probably get boring.
The same thing, in a way, goes for "leprosy." The modern bacterial infection that is "leprosy" today is not the same as the Jewish Tzaraath, which is really what they're talking about in the Bible. "Tzaraath" probably referred to any visible skin affliction, from acne to psoriasis to cellulitis.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:06 PM   #164
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anybody with tourette's syndrome

was most likely labeled possessed



and the "evil spirits" could be quickly removed by praying
anytime they reappeared.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:10 PM   #165
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Isn't the "point" of those stories more that people who are suffering deserve compassion and help, rather than stigmatization and persecution, anyway? As opposed to the idea that we should all be living in dread of the power of 'Evil.'
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