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Old 07-25-2005, 08:58 AM   #61
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I didn't get personal with you. It was a joke, but it wasn't an insult. I was curious how you could see things that just weren't there. If anything, I should be insulted. You did, after all, call me "self-righteous" and attributed things to me that I didn't say.


I called your position self-righteous. I didn't say anything about you, personally.

I couldn't possibly care less that you made a remark about me wearing glasses (I mean, there they are, right there in my avatar, for everyone to see), but I do care that you felt the need to toss off a witty remark rather than address what I said. Like I said, I expected better from you.

And you did, in your post, make a pretty strong implication that a vote based at least part on economic concerns rather than a candidate's position on abortion is, in your opinion, a vote against the concern for quality and dignity of human life.

So, yes, I stand by what I said.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:00 AM   #62
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I didn't vote against my own economic self-interest nor to further an oligarcy blah blah when I cast my vote for Bush, Irvine.


what tax bracket are you in?

it's certainly against my economic self-interests to vote for Bush.

and as someone who has gone without health care, and has had to go to the state for health services, it is also against my own health interests to vote for Bush.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:01 AM   #63
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Originally posted by pax
Nice, 80s. Way to get personal with me. I expected better from you.

I got that from your previous post saying that your vote for "human life" (or anyone's, I guess) is more important than a vote based on "economics," when votes for those so-called "economic interests" are often based in concern for quality and dignity of human life as well.
I was simply answering the question that was asked. Since the question specifically addressed abortion and economics, it should stand to reason that the answer would have something to do with human life and economics. How did you expect someone to answer? I said that human life is more important to me than economic issues. I said nothing about those who voted for Kerry, nothing at all. If you want to read that into it, you are free to do so.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:03 AM   #64
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But I'd say it's time to understand why....


yes ... why do the rights of the fetus (a debatable statement to begin with) matter so much more important than the care of breathing children? or the elderly? or the uninsured? or the working poor?

i haven't a clue.

maybe because it's a purely emotional issue that gets some people frothing at the mouth with self-righteous indignation, and that a real culture of life involves much harder things like universal health care and free quality day care and living wages for working people.

but like i said, since i'm a pro-choice individual, i haven't a clue.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:04 AM   #65
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Because you implied that "economic interests" and "concern for human life" are two different things.

Economic interests are inextricably linked with concern for human life. What do many of the problems of the Third World have to do with? Bad economics, poor fiscal management. Why do people argue for progressive taxes, an end to corporate welfare, an establishment of a living wage? Concern for the quality of life of working families.

Such reforms are, I suspect, just as important to the concern for human life as a push for an end to abortion.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:04 AM   #66
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Originally posted by Irvine511




what tax bracket are you in?

it's certainly against my economic self-interests to vote for Bush.

and as someone who has gone without health care, and has had to go to the state for health services, it is also against my own health interests to vote for Bush.
I am self-employed and have made less than 20k a year since I went into business for myself in 2001. I made 32k annually before that.

I buy my own health insurance, which costs $125 a month.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:07 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax
Because you implied that "economic interests" and "concern for human life" are two different things.

Economic interests are inextricably linked with concern for human life. What do many of the problems of the Third World have to do with? Bad economics, poor fiscal management. Why do people argue for progressive taxes, an end to corporate welfare, an establishment of a living wage? Concern for the quality of life of working families.

Such reforms are, I suspect, just as important to the concern for human life as a push for an end to abortion.
As I said in a previous post, the question dealt specifically with "economics vs. abortion". I answered in an "abortion vs. economics" manner. Honestly, what kind of answer would you expect someone to give?
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:11 AM   #68
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I am self-employed and have made less than 20k a year since I went into business for myself in 2001. I made 32k annually before that.

I buy my own health insurance, which costs $125 a month.


well, i've been in that boat.

and voting Republican is mathematically not in your economic self-interests.

you could put that $125 a month towards Vertigo tickets if we had universal health care ...
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:12 AM   #69
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you could put that $125 a month towards Vertigo tickets if we had universal health care ...
Yeah, but what are the chances of either main political party introducing universal healthcare?
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:12 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




yes ... why do the rights of the fetus (a debatable statement to begin with) matter so much more important than the care of breathing children? or the elderly? or the uninsured? or the working poor?

i haven't a clue.

maybe because it's a purely emotional issue that gets some people frothing at the mouth with self-righteous indignation, and that a real culture of life involves much harder things like universal health care and free quality day care and living wages for working people.

but like i said, since i'm a pro-choice individual, i haven't a clue.
Irvine, you have accused people of faith of ignoring science to believe in the Bible. But with abortion, you actually have fetal development timelines that show human functions, such as a beating heart, beginning at very early stages, not to mention the consensus of embryologists worldwide saying that human life begins at fertilization, and yet you still stick by your prochoice guns. That's ignoring with a capital I.

Living breathing people matter to me as much as fetuses do.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:18 AM   #71
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


As I said in a previous post, the question dealt specifically with "economics vs. abortion". I answered in an "abortion vs. economics" manner. Honestly, what kind of answer would you expect someone to give?
I believe you are completely missing the point. Economic issues are not just about economics! People don't vote on economic issues because of some kind of abiding academic interest in the issues; they vote on those issues because they believe they will have a positive effect on the quality of human life.

I'm saying that votes for certain economic principles show a deep concern for human life.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:19 AM   #72
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Also, fwiw, embryologists and other scientists are not, as you state, in perfect agreement over when life starts.

See http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm for some other perspectives.

I believe this question is absolutely impossible for human beings to fully answer.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:25 AM   #73
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Irvine, you have accused people of faith of ignoring science to believe in the Bible. But with abortion, you actually have fetal development timelines that show human functions, such as a beating heart, beginning at very early stages, not to mention the consensus of embryologists worldwide saying that human life begins at fertilization, and yet you still stick by your prochoice guns. That's ignoring with a capital I.

Living breathing people matter to me as much as fetuses do.


firstly, it is not my intention to get into an abortion debate that centers on the fetus and when it is or is not a human being. i think that misses what the issue is about entirely.

i also think you're making huge, huge sweeping statements about a "worldwide consensus" -- my father is a doctor, and i know that he hasn't reached that consensus yet and is unaware that such a position exists. i do think the science is complex, and often in the eye of the beholder, and as such i take a rather agnostic approach. from a layman's perspective, i have a very, very difficult time seeing how a fertalized egg is the equivalent of a breathing, crying, eating, pooping baby. it doesn't make any rational sense.

as for the rest of the science, i'll step aside and let Pax handle that -- she did a beautiful job with this in another thread, and i couldn't possibly improve upon it.

for me, the issue is less about biology and more about quality of life for both mother and fetus. i view it as a woman's issue, and the fact remains that until women are able to determine exactly when and how they get pregnant they will never achieve equal economic status as men. i don't like abortion, i think it's a very sad choice, but i also think that outlawing abortion is probably the worst way to reduce the incidence of abortion. let's start with comprehensive sex education, and then universal health care, and let's truly be pro-child instead of pro-birth.

we have a different understanding of the issue rooted in our different views on life. i don't mean this to come across as patronizing, but it probably will: you tend to see the world in very black-and-white terms, and as such abortion is either murder or it is not. i see a very, very grey world, and i see abortion as a symptom of a much greater problem and i see the science of the fetus as very murky indeed. as such, i'd rather keep women in control of their uterus and have every child be a wanted child.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:27 AM   #74
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for me, the issue is less about biology and more about quality of life for both mother and fetus. i view it as a woman's issue, and the fact remains that until women are able to determine exactly when and how they get pregnant they will never achieve equal economic status as men. i don't like abortion, i think it's a very sad choice, but i also think that outlawing abortion is probably the worst way to reduce the incidence of abortion. let's start with comprehensive sex education, and then universal health care, and let's truly be pro-child instead of pro-birth.

we have a different understanding of the issue rooted in our different views on life. i don't mean this to come across as patronizing, but it probably will: you tend to see the world in very black-and-white terms, and as such abortion is either murder or it is not. i see a very, very grey world, and i see abortion as a symptom of a much greater problem and i see the science of the fetus as very murky indeed. as such, i'd rather keep women in control of their uterus and have every child be a wanted child.


Couldn't have said it better, and thanks for the compliment.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:54 AM   #75
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Couldn't have said it better
I'll second that .

Angela
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