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Old 07-23-2005, 04:54 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Teta040
, Society still does not tar and feather a man for abandoning a child, the way it does a mother.
I respectfully disagree, there are numerous cases over here of society - through the tool of the legal system - 'tarring and feathering' men by denying them access to their kids.
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:48 PM   #17
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Re: Dean Urges Dems to Court Pro-Life Voters

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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
By DEVLIN BARRETT
Associated Press Writer

July 22, 2005, 10:02 PM EDT

WASHINGTON --


Still, he added, "I think that we must be absolutely firm in being the party of individual freedom and personal freedom, which means that in the end the government doesn't get to decide, we do."

Said the leader of the party that consistently removes the right of motorcyclists to choose whether or not to wear a helmet.
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:50 PM   #18
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Who's talking about "Planned Parenthood"?
Because, even though you don't think so, Planned Parenthood helps women prevent pregnancies in the first place, which is also something many of the "pro-lifers" want to stop.
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:56 PM   #19
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Re: Re: Dean Urges Dems to Court Pro-Life Voters

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Originally posted by martha


Said the leader of the party that consistently removes the right of motorcyclists to choose whether or not to wear a helmet.
Is being denied that right really a great loss to anyone? I mean surely common sense dictates that if you're participating in a potentially dangerous activity, you should take reasonable measures to protect yourself from injury.
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:14 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Dean Urges Dems to Court Pro-Life Voters

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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Is being denied that right really a great loss to anyone? I mean surely common sense dictates that if you're participating in a potentially dangerous activity, you should take reasonable measures to protect yourself from injury.
Boy, you're back and taking no prisoners, aren't you.

Since when do we measure the loss of rights by how "great a loss" it is to you?

One could certainly use your very argument to oppose abortion on demand, couldn't one? "Surely common sense would dictate taking reasonable measures to protect yourself from pregnancy."

Watch out Fizz. Willingness to deny rights that you think are "no great loss" will come back on you.
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Re: Dean Urges Dems to Court Pro-Life Voters

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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Is being denied that right really a great loss to anyone? I mean surely common sense dictates that if you're participating in a potentially dangerous activity, you should take reasonable measures to protect yourself from injury.
Yes, but that should be the person's choice to make, not the government's. If I go out and ride a bike and am not wearing a helmet and pads, and I fall and hurt myself, I have nobody else to blame but myself for my stupid behavior. It shouldn't be the government's job to make sure that I'm all padded up before I go out for a bike ride.

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Old 07-23-2005, 06:51 PM   #22
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And the ones that would still have them anyways will end up shoving coat hangers inside themselves in their basements, as opposed to in a sterile environment with painkillers like in a hospital.
I'm against abortion becauise I think it's murder. I'm not about to support what I consider murder so that there will be "safer places and better conditions under which murder can be committed".
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:52 PM   #23
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The 'motorcycle helmet" rule is there for insurance purposes.
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:01 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dean Urges Dems to Court Pro-Life Voters

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
One could certainly use your very argument to oppose abortion on demand, couldn't one? "Surely common sense would dictate taking reasonable measures to protect yourself from pregnancy."
Certainly one could! Why not go the whole hog and legalise drink driving and heroin abuse? How dare the government interfere in our private lives.

One wonders where does the wish of the foetus to maybe, possibly, conceivably, stay alive, come into your commitment to libertarianism/human rights, etc? But the foetus can't speak up for itself, organise demonstrations, etc.
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
40% occurrence? Huh? As in, 40% of all pregnancies terminate in abortion?

Where did you get that figure? Why in the world would you think that overturning Roe v. Wade would cause such a high abortion rate?
Based on the available data, the pre-Roe rates were in fact much higher than you seem to believe. The 1953 Kinsey report, by far the largest pre-Roe study to directly address this issue, found that about 25% of its (female) respondents had had abortions. Other, smaller pre-Roe studies found similar figures: Taussig (1934) surveyed 1241 women, who reported 1 abortion per 3.28 live births; Kopp (1934) studied 10,000 women's medical records and found a 1-in-5 ratio of induced abortions to births; Brunner and Newton (1939, AmerJourObGyn), Stix and Wiehl (1938, AmerJourPubHealth), and Abrahamson (1936, Lancet) all found rates from 12-22% among women surveyed in New York, Pennsylvania, Newark, Minnesota, and Cincinnati.

I won't get into the international data (which is abundant, especially for the late 20th century), but suffice to say it also fails miserably to make a case for criminalization being the way to keep abortion rates low.

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
And the ones that would still have them anyways will end up shoving coat hangers inside themselves in their basements, as opposed to in a sterile environment with painkillers like in a hospital.
And for some relevant data here...a 15-state survey of maternal deaths from 1927-28 (US Dep't of Labor, Children's Bureau) found that 794 of the 7537 deceased women had died from self-induced abortions. Sangmeister's 1931-1940 survey of maternal mortality in Philadelphia found that about 20% of the women had died from induced abortions. And a 1962 California Medical Association study of the 515 cases of maternal mortality for that year found that 70 (14%) of the women had died from self-induced abortions.


Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
SOME men sow their wild oats. So do SOME women.
Men don't get pregnant. Big difference.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:06 PM   #26
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I think, overall, the Left has not made a good case for strengthening personal morality, instead of the government setting the morality for them like the GOP prefers.

Of course, I do think that, right now, this is more of a new and still half-assed gesture from the Democrats. They need to have more conviction, more consistency, and get the Religious Left to have more vocal support.

The fact remains that most people don't quite understand the difference between personal morality versus governmental morality. After all, the GOP ripped Kerry apart over the issue of finding abortion personally immoral, but supportive of it's legality.

Melon
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:45 PM   #27
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Originally posted by yolland


Based on the available data, the pre-Roe rates were in fact much higher than you seem to believe. The 1953 Kinsey report, by far the largest pre-Roe study to directly address this issue, found that about 25% of its (female) respondents had had abortions. Other, smaller pre-Roe studies found similar figures: Taussig (1934) surveyed 1241 women, who reported 1 abortion per 3.28 live births; Kopp (1934) studied 10,000 women's medical records and found a 1-in-5 ratio of induced abortions to births; Brunner and Newton (1939, AmerJourObGyn), Stix and Wiehl (1938, AmerJourPubHealth), and Abrahamson (1936, Lancet) all found rates from 12-22% among women surveyed in New York, Pennsylvania, Newark, Minnesota, and Cincinnati.
I don't know anything about the other studies, but I do know that the credibility of Kinsey's research is widely criticized; some purport that a large portion of the people he talked to were inmates and criminals.

As for the other sudies, do you really believe their credibility? 1 in 3? 1 in 4? 1 in 5? Come on, surely you don't believe that. I'd bet that if we were to study those studies, we'd find some serious research issues.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:01 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
The 'motorcycle helmet" rule is there for insurance purposes.
Or to keep people alive.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:39 AM   #29
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I don't know anything about the other studies, but I do know that the credibility of Kinsey's research is widely criticized; some purport that a large portion of the people he talked to were inmates and criminals.
That criticism has indeed been leveled at Kinsey's earlier studies on male sexual behavior, which drew significantly on prison populations. Incidentally, the criticism was itself controversial and widely criticized, not least for its assumption that 'inmates and criminals' must display high levels of deviant and abnormal sexual behavior--an assumption not borne out by subsequent research. (Needless to say, this doesn't apply to sex offenders, but then Kinsey wasn't surveying them.)

Quote:
As for the other sudies, do you really believe their credibility? 1 in 3? 1 in 4? 1 in 5? Come on, surely you don't believe that.
Sounds perfectly plausible to me, and there are at least a dozen more like those I could cite. Remember, this was before the widespread availability of contraception, so the percentage of pregnancies that were unplanned and unwanted was much higher than it is today.
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:01 AM   #30
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I'm against abortion becauise I think it's murder. I'm not about to support what I consider murder so that there will be "safer places and better conditions under which murder can be committed".



I promise i won't get into a slinging match, but you just CANNOT say that. Am i right in thinking you believe abortion is murder because you'rereligious and thats what you've been taught? Because if you were in anyway scientifical (which has basically overturned and proven wrong nearly ever christian belief out there) then you would realise that its not murder, its a procedure to get rid of a mass of cells from a woman because she isn't ready to have a child and doesn't want to give it to someone so in 20 years will have to deal when the kid comes looking for her full of hostitilty and emotional baggage.

Abortion should be legal because in our society sex is an everyday occurance and sometimes pregnancy is a by product of that, and a baby CHANGES your life FOREVER.

For example using the helmut thing, say if a guy rides his bike without any protective gear (or maybe just a faulty helmut that cracks when hit hard) and falls off his bike and smashes his head on the concrete, should he be refused medial attention because he didn't use a helmut in the first place? A brain hemmorage could certainly change his life, but should he just be told to take two asprin and fuck off?

I'm sorry but this whole abortion is murder thing is a purely religious/spiritual thing which should have nothing to do with a countries laws. What happen to the whole seperation of church and state?

I think if abortion is made illigial then so should working on a sunday, divorce, swearing, anyone going to a church OTHER then a christian one and all those other commandments that i have no idea about. Because thats where this whole fairytale started from.
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