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Old 07-14-2005, 02:54 PM   #46
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A "U.S." Idiot, you mean...

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Old 07-14-2005, 04:21 PM   #47
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
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So, adding my definition of "fundamentalism" to what you said above, am I correct when I say that your belief is that:

The belief that every word in the Bible is true is a dangerous thing?

Or, to put it in the context of all religions:

The belief that every word in any "holy" book is true is a dangerous thing?"

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

yes.
Personally, I think that for you to say that - nay, even to hold that belief - fans the flames of hatred against people of faith. Christians are executed and jailed all over the world for simply sharing their faith, especially in China. You may not be the actual executioner, but by holding such prejudiced views against Bible-Believing Christians (calling us "dangerous"), you are partially to blame.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:23 PM   #48
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Sorry 80s but that is complete and utter rubbish.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:24 PM   #49
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Sorry 80s but that is complete and utter rubbish.
It certainly is.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
"
So, adding my definition of "fundamentalism" to what you said above, am I correct when I say that your belief is that:

The belief that every word in the Bible is true is a dangerous thing?

Or, to put it in the context of all religions:

The belief that every word in any "holy" book is true is a dangerous thing?"



Personally, I think that for you to say that - nay, even to hold that belief - fans the flames of hatred against people of faith. Christians are executed and jailed all over the world for simply sharing their faith, especially in China. You may not be the actual executioner, but by holding such prejudiced views against Bible-Believing Christians (calling us "dangerous"), you are partially to blame.
Right.

So for me to say - nay, even to hold the BELIEF - that all religions are wrong (and I do hold that belief, incidentally) means that I am 'fanning flames of hatred'.

Come off it.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:28 PM   #51
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Right.

So for me to say - nay, even to hold the BELIEF - that all religions are wrong (and I do hold that belief, incidentally) means that I am 'fanning flames of hatred'.

Come off it.
Dude, I agree with you. I even said "it certainly is" when you said it was rubbish.
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Old 07-15-2005, 01:36 AM   #52
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These idiots are sick, worthless little pieces of cancerous rectal sputum on the pimpled anus of humanity.
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Old 07-15-2005, 08:48 AM   #53
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Sorry 80s but that is complete and utter rubbish.
Looks like 80s wants to make a point re: previous discussions on homophobia...
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Old 07-15-2005, 09:38 AM   #54
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Looks like 80s wants to make a point re: previous discussions on homophobia...
Almost got it, but the discussion wasn't about homophobia. It was about my belief that homosexuality is wrong. Homophobia is defined as the fear or hatred of homosexuals.
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Old 07-15-2005, 09:43 AM   #55
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Ok I understand now.
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Old 07-15-2005, 10:07 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Almost got it, but the discussion wasn't about homophobia. It was about my belief that homosexuality is wrong. Homophobia is defined as the fear or hatred of homosexuals.


you've completely misunderstood and your analogy to homophobia is utter bullshit. just look at my thread about the father who beat his child to death because he was afraid the child, at 3, was gay. your endorsement of homosexuality being "wrong" adds to a climate where it is okay to view homosexuality as lesser, as less than human, as less than acceptable, as a deviation from the norm, as something to be feared. and people die in such climates.

to go back to what i was originally saying, i find that people who take each and every literal word of the bible to be true to be dangerous because they are then willing to submit their rationalit and conscience to the words of the Bible. that, to me, is a fundamentalist, by your own definitions, though i would argue that you don't adhere to the definition of a fundamentalist that you mapped out for yourself.

what seems to be lost is the fact that you are INTERPRETING the bible, and because this is an interpretation, a very human process, there are going to be errors, and most people are humble enough to realize this. no one of any credibility believes the word was made in 7 days, that Adam and Eve were literal, that a snake actually spoke to Eve, that Noah built an arc and the world flooded. this is a kind of know-nothing/world-is-flat type of thinking that claims the Grand Canyon was made only 3,000 years ago instead of over millions of years.

that kind of thinking is absolutely dangerous.
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Old 07-15-2005, 10:21 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


you've completely misunderstood and your analogy to homophobia is utter bullshit. just look at my thread about the father who beat his child to death because he was afraid the child, at 3, was gay. your endorsement of homosexuality being "wrong" adds to a climate where it is okay to view homosexuality as lesser, as less than human, as less than acceptable, as a deviation from the norm, as something to be feared. and people die in such climates.
It's the same thing, Irvine. Can't you see that? The government officials in China and some otehr countries see Christianity as dangerous...therfore, anyone caught sharing the Gospel can be jailed and executed. Don't you see that if my belief that homosexuality is wrong adds to the climate in which gays are treated as less than human, then it follows that your belief that Christian fundamentalism (defined here as belief in every word of the Bible) is dangerous adds to the climate in which Christians are executed and jailed because the government thinks they're dangerous? If you can't see that, then you are purposely closing your eyes to it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
to go back to what i was originally saying, i find that people who take each and every literal word of the bible to be true to be dangerous because they are then willing to submit their rationalit and conscience to the words of the Bible. that, to me, is a fundamentalist, by your own definitions, though i would argue that you don't adhere to the definition of a fundamentalist that you mapped out for yourself.
This makes me curious; in what way am I not a fundamentalist?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

no one of any credibility believes the word was made in 7 days, that Adam and Eve were literal, that a snake actually spoke to Eve, that Noah built an arc and the world flooded. this is a kind of know-nothing/world-is-flat type of thinking that claims the Grand Canyon was made only 3,000 years ago instead of over millions of years.

that kind of thinking is absolutely dangerous.
How in the WORLD can you say that no one of any credibility believes in those things? Is it because you don't? How very arrogant of you!
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Old 07-15-2005, 10:59 AM   #58
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


It's the same thing, Irvine. Can't you see that? The government officials in China and some otehr countries see Christianity as dangerous...therfore, anyone caught sharing the Gospel can be jailed and executed. Don't you see that if my belief that homosexuality is wrong adds to the climate in which gays are treated as less than human, then it follows that your belief that Christian fundamentalism (defined here as belief in every word of the Bible) is dangerous adds to the climate in which Christians are executed and jailed because the government thinks they're dangerous? If you can't see that, then you are purposely closing your eyes to it.




This makes me curious; in what way am I not a fundamentalist?



How in the WORLD can you say that no one of any credibility believes in those things? Is it because you don't? How very arrogant of you!

1. no, it is completely different. you've totally misunderstood, and perhaps that's my fault for not communicating better. it's not about believing the Bible, it's about believing in (your) literal interpretation of the Bible to the point where you subdue your rationality and conscience and live your life in strict adherence to that. i am saying nothing against Christianity at all, much less saying that Christianity is "wrong" in the way that you feel free to level such judgements against homsexualilty. i am saying that a specific practice of Christianity -- or *any* religion ... religion itself really is the problem here, because it offers such absolutes -- can be very dangerous. don't think Christianity is free from the hijacking that's currently going on in Islam. all religions -- because they are religions -- are susceptable.

2. because i don't think you do subdue your rationality.

3. no, it's because science says that this type of literalness in regards to the bible is completely, utterly, and totally scientifically bogus. anyone who knows anything about geology knows that the grand canyon was formed over millions of years, but since some people find things like "science" and "facts" get in the way of their small-minded interpretations of the bible.

it's allegory. it might be true, but it is not fact.
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:42 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


1. no, it is completely different. you've totally misunderstood, and perhaps that's my fault for not communicating better. it's not about believing the Bible, it's about believing in (your) literal interpretation of the Bible to the point where you subdue your rationality and conscience and live your life in strict adherence to that.
Then you did word it wrong - big time. You originally said that believing every word of the Bible to be true is dangerous.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

2. because i don't think you do subdue your rationality.
Thank you. As I've said in another post, I do believe the Bible to be 100% accurate. However, my interpretation of the Bible is certainly open to being wrong.

And yet, there are certain things that aren't really open to interpretation, that just about everyone would say "this means so and so", because of the straight-forward way in which they are worded.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
3. no, it's because science says that this type of literalness in regards to the bible is completely, utterly, and totally scientifically bogus. anyone who knows anything about geology knows that the grand canyon was formed over millions of years, but since some people find things like "science" and "facts" get in the way of their small-minded interpretations of the bible.

it's allegory. it might be true, but it is not fact.
To believe that every word of the Bible is true does not necessarily mean that every word must be taken literally. The Book Of Revelation is a shining example of that. Some people take it literally, and some people take it symbolically. Still others, such as myself, use a literal/symbolic hybrid interpretation: John then Revelator was shown the future - in his vision, he saw things that had not been invented yet, like fighter jets, tanks, etc., and described them the only way he knew how, as crazy looking creatures.

As for the "creation in 7 days", that could also be allegory, as in scripture, it says that to God, a day is as a thousand years, the idea that time doesn't mean to God what it means to us. It limits us; he is not limited. In fact, he is outside the sonfines of time. I do believe that God created the universe and everything in it. However, whether he did that by setting off the Big Bang or what, I don't know.

I do believe that every thing the Bible presents as actually happening did happen, especially Adam and Eve. I know that some Christians think Adam and Eve are allegory, but I think they're missing something; if Adam and Eve did not exist, Christianity largley falls apart.

First, I believe every word that came from Christ's mouth, and Christ spoke of Adam and Eve, as if they actually existed:

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matthew 19:4-6

As a side note, he also spoke about Abel (Mt. 23:35), Noah (Mt. 24:37), and the flood (Mt. 24:38)

Another reason that Adam and Eve are very important to Christianity is because it is through them, the mother and father of the human race, that the original sin and the sin nature entered the world. The Old and New Testament make it clear that this sin nature (sinful spirit), which started with two people, is passed down to every single person who is ever born. The New Testament, in fact, says that the sin nature is the reason that people cannot enter Heaven, because God cannot abide in the presence of sin. However, upon a person being "reborn" or "regenerated", the sin nature is crucified for that person and is replaced with a new nature; the nature of Christ, the Holy Spirit. It is is that new, sinless nature that makes a person acceptable Christ. It is very important to note here that I said "sinless nature", not "sinless flesh"; I am talking exclusively about the spirit. Adam and Eve are very important to the passing down of the sin nature.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -
1Corinthians 15:22

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:12-19
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Old 07-16-2005, 07:23 AM   #60
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I don't see the harm in believing every word in the Bible is God's Word. As a liberal Catholic it is a belief I do not share. The belief itself doesn't imply stupidity or hate. All faith is a suspension of reason. When I take the Eucharist at mass, I'm doing something I can't pretend to understand intellectually. It's the same thing, different article of faith. Just because you can't explain something using logic doesn't invalidate the belief, it makes it an item of faith and not reason. Stupidity and hate is something completely different, it's the addition of an intense negative emotion or of completely being in the dark about something and not being able to admit it.
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