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Old 07-13-2005, 04:11 PM   #31
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I think the basic point is the difference between grace theology and works theology.
But we can't even get all those that fall under the umbrella of Christianity to agree on this.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:15 PM   #32
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It would be interesting to see the demographics of the individuals on this board. My guess is that, when compared to the world at large, we are better educated and have higher standards of living.

My point in saying this is that there is a large percentage of the world population that we may be tempted to describe as having education levels and economic levels low enough to be "desparate".

I believe the power of the "reward" for martyrdom will be attractive to the "desparate" and "non-desparate" alike.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:17 PM   #33
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But we can't even get all those that fall under the umbrella of Christianity to agree on this.
Perhaps, but under a grace theology, the incentive for something like martyerdom is missing.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:25 PM   #34
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Perhaps, but under a grace theology, the incentive for something like martyerdom is missing.
But what I'm saying is there are Christians who do believe it takes works as well. Those that murder abortion doctors believe they are doing God's work, and choose to be martyrs by accepting the death penalty or life in prison.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:32 PM   #35
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I know - its not Christian v. Muslim

It is Grace v. Works

Works, under any religious scheme, is ripe for abuse.
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:02 PM   #36
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Works, under any religious scheme, is ripe for abuse.
As is 'grace' - if someone only has to say a prayer in order to be forgiven all their 'sins' what's to stop them committing horrendous crimes safe in the knowledge that all they need to do is say a prayer again and all their crimes are forgiven?
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:07 PM   #37
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I know - its not Christian v. Muslim

It is Grace v. Works

Works, under any religious scheme, is ripe for abuse.
Ok I get what you are saying now. Sorry I misunderstood.

Let's take this a step further and say works under and scheme, is ripe for abuse. Be it a cult, government, family, etc. You have a leader, who 9 times out of 10 doesn't believe 100% in what they speak but they know it works to help gain power. Now they may use religion or anything else to push their agenda. But anyone who begins to believe that they must kill, eat poison, sacrifice babies all these things that naturally go against our own human morals or well being, in order to obtain what they want is a person who's desperate and or uneducated.
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:14 PM   #38
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


As is 'grace' - if someone only has to say a prayer in order to be forgiven all their 'sins' what's to stop them committing horrendous crimes safe in the knowledge that all they need to do is say a prayer again and all their crimes are forgiven?
like bearing false witness concerning WMDs
to scare the American people into supporting a war

or blowing the cover of a CIA agent

or a little torture, here and there
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:07 PM   #39
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


As is 'grace' - if someone only has to say a prayer in order to be forgiven all their 'sins' what's to stop them committing horrendous crimes safe in the knowledge that all they need to do is say a prayer again and all their crimes are forgiven?
Actually, there is quite a difference. In your example, you suggest that someone is motivated to commit a crime because of a perceived lack of eternal consequence. That is not much of a motivating factor.

Getting a reward to commit the same crime is much more of a motivating factor.
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:15 AM   #40
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
How do you create a deterence when an eternity of worldly pleasure is sold to these young men as a reward for their deadly acts?

...I think the basic point is the difference between grace theology and works theology.
The problem with this analysis is that it assumes a simplistic cause-and-effect relationship between Islamist rhetoric and individual bombers' motivations. One might just as easily (and unconvincingly) argue that what is really needed is a 'Muslim Vatican' to act as a moderating counterbalance against the 'Muslim world's' destabilizing tendencies towards ideological anarchy, personality cults, and politicization of religious discourse.

Among terrorist organizations, the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka still hold the dubious record for 'highest number of suicide attacks committed'--yet they are a secular association, based on ethnic nationalism (and drawing from both the Tamil Christian and Tamil Hindu communities). Clearly, 'works theology' is not a factor there--nor any other type of theology.

My point is not that all suicide bombers ultimately think alike, but that it seems dangerously shortsighted to assume Islamist rhetoric about 'eternal rewards' adequately explains, say, the relative surge of interest in 'martyrdom' among young Sunni Iraqi males lately. Why the sudden increase in receptivity to this 'theology'? Does the fact that many (not all!) of the insurgents are religious Muslims somehow render them immune to 'secular' motivations like revenge for perceived humiliation; or an obligation to one's uphold personal or collective honor; or even the appeal of a heroic death? Where is the hard evidence that a 'grace theology' would act as a disincentive to terrorism?
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I know - its not Christian v. Muslim

It is Grace v. Works

Works, under any religious scheme, is ripe for abuse.
Unfortunately, I believe that is merely a semantical game. Instead, the "grace" crowd often still judge someone by their "works" as "evidence" that they have not accepted Christ--even if the person claims to be Christian--and that they're going to hell.

Same game. Different scam.

Melon
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:55 AM   #42
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When did we swing back to the same indictments of conservative Christianity?
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Old 07-14-2005, 10:07 AM   #43
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Originally posted by melon


Unfortunately, I believe that is merely a semantical game. Instead, the "grace" crowd often still judge someone by their "works" as "evidence" that they have not accepted Christ--even if the person claims to be Christian--and that they're going to hell.

Same game. Different scam.

Melon
Just because a person may look at someone's behaviors and say "I have my doubts as to whether that person is really a Christian" doesn't mean he's necessarily fallen back into a system of works, as opposed to grace.

The Bible says that Christians will be known by their fruit. I'm not saying that Christians have perfect fruit, but if I meet someone who claims to be a Christian, but over time show no Christian fruit, it's quite natural to wonder whether the person really is a Christian.
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Old 07-14-2005, 10:08 AM   #44
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


When did we swing back to the same indictments of conservative Christianity?
This is still FYM, right?
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Old 07-14-2005, 10:17 AM   #45
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Just because a person may look at someone's behaviors and say "I have my doubts as to whether that person is really a Christian" doesn't mean he's necessarily fallen back into a system of works, as opposed to grace.

The Bible says that Christians will be known by their fruit. I'm not saying that Christians have perfect fruit, but if I meet someone who claims to be a Christian, but over time show no Christian fruit, it's quite natural to wonder whether the person really is a Christian.
I know the theology, and I know the theory. I often think that, in practice, it is different.

And that's why people like Fred Phelps exist.

Melon
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