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Old 07-13-2005, 02:02 PM   #16
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How do you create a deterence when an eternity of worldly pleasure is sold to these young men as a reward for their deadly acts?
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:07 PM   #17
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How do you create a deterence when an eternity of worldly pleasure is sold to these young men as a reward for their deadly acts?
If their lives weren't so desperate and they had education they wouldn't fall for this.
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:11 PM   #18
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the problem actually is religion -- any and all religion -- itself.

i've posted this quote before, because i love it so, and is one of the reasons why, yes, i do think fundamentalism in any religion -- no matter how it is defined -- is a dangerous thing. it doesn't have to be, but it has the potential for apocalypse.

here's why:

"From the first moment I looked into that horror on Sept. 11, into that fireball, into that explosion of horror, I knew it. I knew it before anything was said about those who did it or why. I recognized an old companion. I recognized religion. Look, I am a priest for over 30 years. Religion is my life, it's my vocation, it's my existence. I'd give my life for it; I hope to have the courage. Therefore, I know it.

And I know, and recognized that day, that the same force, energy, sense, instinct, whatever, passion -- because religion can be a passion -- the same passion that motivates religious people to do great things is the same one that that day brought all that destruction. When they said that the people who did it did it in the name of God, I wasn't the slightest bit surprised. It only confirmed what I knew. I recognized it.

I recognized this thirst, this demand for the absolute. Because if you don't hang on to the unchanging, to the absolute, to that which cannot disappear, you might disappear. I recognized that this thirst for the never-ending, the permanent, the wonders of all things, this intolerance or fear of diversity, that which is different -- these are characteristics of religion. And I knew that that force could take you to do great things. But I knew that there was no greater and more destructive force on the surface of this earth than the religious passion." -- Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete, from the PBS Frontline show "Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero"
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the problem actually is religion -- any and all religion -- itself.

i've posted this quote before, because i love it so, and is one of the reasons why, yes, i do think fundamentalism in any religion -- no matter how it is defined -- is a dangerous thing.
Define "fundamentalism' for us, please.
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
How do you create a deterence when an eternity of worldly pleasure is sold to these young men as a reward for their deadly acts?
These guys have got to have issues if they are attracted to this school of Islam in the first place. Most Muslims believe suicide is a huge sin. I've seen this all over Turkish discussion groups. Most Turks are both disgusted with terrorism and so convinced of the sinfulness of suicide that there's no way they'd be attracted to this interpretation of Islam.
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:41 PM   #21
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Originally posted by verte76


These guys have got to have issues if they are attracted to this school of Islam in the first place. Most Muslims believe suicide is a huge sin. I've seen this all over Turkish discussion groups. Most Turks are both disgusted with terrorism and so convinced of the sinfulness of suicide that there's no way they'd be attracted to this interpretation of Islam.
I don't think there's anything in the Koran about "suicide martyrdom" getting rewards. But the Koran does say that fighting in the name of Allah is encouraged and will get ya some extra rewards.
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:51 PM   #22
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Define "fundamentalism' for us, please.


you defined it very well yourself in another thread.
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:21 PM   #23
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


If their lives weren't so desperate and they had education they wouldn't fall for this.
Do you know that their lives were desparate, or is the base assumption that if you are willing to blow yourself up, you must live a desparate life.
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:27 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511




you defined it very well yourself in another thread.
So, adding my definition of "fundamentalism" to what you said above, am I correct when I say that your belief is that:

The belief that every word in the Bible is true is a dangerous thing?

Or, to put it in the context of all religions:

The belief that every word in any "holy" book is true is a dangerous thing?
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:30 PM   #25
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


So, adding my definition of "fundamentalism" to what you said above, am I correct when I say that your belief is that:

The belief that every word in the Bible is true is a dangerous thing?

Or, to put it in the context of all religions:

The belief that every word in any "holy" book is true is a dangerous thing?


yes.
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:44 PM   #26
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Do you know that their lives were desparate, or is the base assumption that if you are willing to blow yourself up, you must live a desparate life.
Well you don't see the Bin Laden's volunteering for the roles. If they truly believed in the stuff they selling they'd be dead, all of them. The truth is, it's the poorest and most desperate that get recruited for these roles.
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:59 PM   #27
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well you don't see the Bin Laden's volunteering for the roles. If they truly believed in the stuff they selling they'd be dead, all of them. The truth is, it's the poorest and most desperate that get recruited for these roles.

i'll take the rare disagreement w/BVS.

it's not about being poor or desperate that turns one into a suicide bomber. if that were true, we'd have Angolans blowing themselves up all over the place.

it's about a sense of humiliation coupled with the apocalyptic absolutes that only religion can provide.

but humiliation. it cannot be underestimated.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:00 PM   #28
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I don't think there's anything in the Koran about "suicide martyrdom" getting rewards. But the Koran does say that fighting in the name of Allah is encouraged and will get ya some extra rewards.
Let's take a look at some other text that can be twisted:

Exodus 22:20

"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.



These are just a few, but the point is almost any religious text can be misinterpreted without context.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:04 PM   #29
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I think the basic point is the difference between grace theology and works theology.
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



i'll take the rare disagreement w/BVS.

it's not about being poor or desperate that turns one into a suicide bomber. if that were true, we'd have Angolans blowing themselves up all over the place.

it's about a sense of humiliation coupled with the apocalyptic absolutes that only religion can provide.

but humiliation. it cannot be underestimated.
I agree it's not just being poor and desperate. I realize that. But when recruiting for suicide bombers where do you think they go first.

Take a look at Waco. Take a look at the education levels and economic levels of the individuals, people like Koresh, Bin Laden, etc know that they can prey on desperate and get them to do their doing.
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