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Old 08-31-2005, 09:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
You folk who support the actions of the man with the gun - you're Christians. How on earth does that work? What happened to Thou Shalt Not Kill? Seriously, you are condoning a big mother of a sin. But that's for you and God. Dont mind me pointing out the obvious. But just quickly while we are on that, do folk in your position feel almighty enough to declare who is worthy of life? Of who can be judged and execute actions to that effect? I had believed it was also a sin to do the work of God as well.

But legally. Killing is a crime, yes? Full stop? America doesn't really need police, does it. You lot seem very determined to do it yourself. Oh, even when it is in defence of an absolute innocent person. 'Cause, we can rank people. I like that. I like the idea of me being better or more worthy than someone else. I like the idea [*edit typo] of me being above the law in certain situations.

Yes, I am a Christian. I am of the researched conclusion that the originally translated commandment was "Thou Shalt Not Murder." This is a case of a human defending the life of another, as tragic as the consequences may have been. I am not judging any of these people regarding their place in heaven (or wherever they may end up).

You ask me (and people who agree with me, I presume) to confirm that "Killing is a crime." I'll say that murder and manslaughter are crimes. Self defense and, in some cases, acting to defend the life of an innocent persoon, are permissible under the law. Mr. Due Moore acted within the law in this case. I don't really think he used a "ranking" system but probably happened upon a man armed with a knife repeatedly stabbing an unarmed woman, who, most likely, did not want to be stabbed/murdered by the man with the knife. Who in the hell was he to rank his life over hers?

~U2Alabama
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse

I live in an area where almost all the residents own firearms.
You wanna guess how many murders we had the past year?

Or ten years...

Our faith and values have a lot to do with our low crime rate,
not the number of guns in our closets.

It's time we start blaming the weapons and evil in hearts,

not inanimate objects.
Sorry that has little to do with owning guns, faith, or values and more to do with population per square mile.

My cousin grew up in a rural area where these same guns, faith, values are held and she was murdered at a Valentines Day's dance by a jealous lover. She was 19.

If we look at this article a little harder we could also make the conclusion that if repeat domestic violence offenders and restraining orders were taken a little more seriously we wouldn't have had a woman stabbed.

This isn't your first gun thread, you also called those that weren't allowed to freely shoot stray cats being controlled by the thought police. So there does seem to be a hint of gun glory in your posts.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


Yes, I am a Christian. I am of the researched conclusion that the originally translated commandment was "Thou Shalt Not Murder." This is a case of a human defending the life of another, as tragic as the consequences may have been. I am not judging any of these people regarding their place in heaven (or wherever they may end up).

You ask me (and people who agree with me, I presume) to confirm that "Killing is a crime." I'll say that murder and manslaughter are crimes. Self defense and, in some cases, acting to defend the life of an innocent persoon, are permissible under the law. Mr. Due Moore acted within the law in this case. I don't really think he used a "ranking" system but probably happened upon a man armed with a knife repeatedly stabbing an unarmed woman, who, most likely, did not want to be stabbed/murdered by the man with the knife. Who in the hell was he to rank his life over hers?

~U2Alabama
So who does the ranking of life here? The man with the concealed weapon might not have. To say would be supposing. However, there are people in here who have justified his killing someone else. We can label it under law as whatever we like, and there are certainly differences in murder and manslaughter etc. But really, for some schmoe on the street to do the work of the legal system and also God, I find it a bloody huge stretch.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


So who does the ranking of life here? The man with the concealed weapon might not have. To say would be supposing. However, there are people in here who have justified his killing someone else. We can label it under law as whatever we like, and there are certainly differences in murder and manslaughter etc. But really, for some schmoe on the street to do the work of the legal system and also God, I find it a bloody huge stretch.
Well, I'm not a Christian, so I'm not worried about sin, but to me people who commit domestic violence are lower than the scum on the bottom of a rock and if one gets blown away while stabbing a victim in Walmart that's just too damned bad. Too bad more of them don't meet the same fate.
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:27 PM   #20
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It's great that her life was saved, but i'm not sure i like the idea of people carrying guns with them at the wal-mart
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:47 PM   #21
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Guns don't kill people, I kill people.

Ahhh remember that from Happy Gilmore? Hehehe...

Anyways, I agree, guns aren't the problem, evil people are the problem. If the tools are the problem we should outlaw various other potentially deadly objects, such as knives, metal bars and rocks.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:25 PM   #22
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January 29, 2000. Mount Morris Township, Michigan. A 7-year-old boy shoots 6-year-old Kayla Rolland in the neck with a .32 semi-automatic handgun; Rolland dies.

That 7 year old boy must have had so much evil in his heart
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by unosdostres14
January 29, 2000. Mount Morris Township, Michigan. A 7-year-old boy shoots 6-year-old Kayla Rolland in the neck with a .32 semi-automatic handgun; Rolland dies.

That 7 year old boy must have had so much evil in his heart
The child acts without malice; who the fuck allowed the kid to get his hands on a bloody gun?
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Old 09-03-2005, 07:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
But really, for some schmoe on the street to do the work of the legal system and also God, I find it a bloody huge stretch.
Are you suggesting that Due Moore should have stood by and allowed Felix Vigil to continue stabbing Joyce Cordova, possibly to her death, and comfortably known that the "legal system" could have then come in and hopefully prosecuted Felix Vigil, even though Joyce Cordova would have been dead by then? Felix Vigil was the agressor here, not Joyce Cordova. Felix Vigil took a risk, a gamble, when he went to a public place and began stabbing his ex-wife, Joyce Cordova. He lost the bet. Someone (Due Moore)better armed than Felix Vigil defended his ex-wife (Joyce Cordova). Due moore prevented the death of Joyce Cordova.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:21 PM   #25
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Why is there only 2 options in this particular scenario? It's one of my FYM pet hates; you suggest one thing and people then assume you prefer the other glaring alternative. In this case, I think this guy shouldn't have shot that man, so naturally I must mean I'd rather see him stab his ex wife. Sure. But wrong, wrong, wrong - people should be able to stretch their mental capacity to accept there might just be another option. One which doesn't require spelling out. Sorry for sounding testy here, I know you weren't technically doing it as bad as some situations see in here, but really. Debates can be carried out entirely better than this.

But let me clarify for anyone reading who might be a few IQ points short of normal. I dont condone or placidly accept the death or killing of anyone easily. The circumstances or reasons why, dont allow my docile mind to comfortably accept it. The guy was a perfect candidate for akilling we can all live easily with. Who does have time for wife beaters? This however, isn't about the wifebeater. There is not one person on this planet who can judge his life as not worthy anymore. Lets move past the wifebeater and talk about Due Moore's right to kill another man.
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Old 09-04-2005, 04:50 PM   #26
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Thank you all for the input and discussion on this thread.

Some agree, some disagree,some in the middle, but it has been a civil debate.

Oh, I can't remember who said it, but my post on the hunt for stray cats was not meant to be a glorification of guns, but a call to save birds and other small animals from being killed by stray cats.


A recent update from a New Mexico paper on the story:
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/31883.html
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Old 09-04-2005, 04:54 PM   #27
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iron horse, there was a shooting incident over the weekend over here in Ireland involving a land dispute. It occured in a quiet rural part of Ireland. Two men are dead.

I am going to post a link to the news story here, because I think it ties in to the debate on this thread, to some extent :-

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/09/04/story219170.html

To me, it just goes to show the dangers of guns, if in the wrong hands, but then again, who decides what are the right people to carry guns and which aren't?
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Old 09-04-2005, 05:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
iron horse, there was a shooting incident over the weekend over here in Ireland involving a land dispute. It occured in a quiet rural part of Ireland. Two men are dead.

I am going to post a link to the news story here, because I think it ties in to the debate on this thread, to some extent :-

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/09/04/story219170.html

To me, it just goes to show the dangers of guns, if in the wrong hands, but then again, who decides what are the right people to carry guns and which aren't?



financeguy,

Thanks for posting the story,
very sad. Prayers to the family and friends.


The muderer, not only killed another person, but killed himself.

It does tie into the debate here.

It is not guns that are the evil, but evil within our hearts.

We could snap our fingers and make all the guns in world disappear,

but people with evil in their hearts would be killing the next day and the days beyond.

They did before guns were ever on the scene.
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Old 09-04-2005, 10:37 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Lets move past the wifebeater and talk about Due Moore's right to kill another man.
I don't see it as much as an issue of Due Moore's "right" to kill another man in general. In this specific case, I do not see it as him killing Felix Vigil as an acto fpunishment for Vigil stabbing/attempting to murder Vigil's ex-wife. Instead, I see it as a case of Due Moore shooting (and ultimately killing) Felix Vigil in order to end Vigil's act of attempting to slaughter his ex-wife.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-04-2005, 10:59 PM   #30
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Logic then dictates that shooting him to stop his actions, the stabbings, wasn't actually necessary. It was the most drastic measure for something which could have had an invariable number of other endings. But because he was carrying a concealed gun, he took that route. I've asked that we not focus on the act of beating an innocent woman and the wrongs of this Felix character, but that is too ingrained to avoid? Honestly, this doesn't even come under self defence. Semantics allow people who are supposed to be loving and forgiving and righteous, do this kind of shit. Doesn't this disturb any of you in the least? Doesn't a part of your brain niggle at you and say 'dude, this is extreme, dunno if Jesus or God really meant it to be taken like this. Do I want to take that risk?'

I'm getting cranky here, I will stop. It isn't to be directed at you specifically, Bama, but others of similar beliefs as yours who have previously just written me and others off as mindlessly stereotyping, but when does nbc and the like come in and ever explain why? If this is stereotyping, then tell me why for fucks sake. Tell me why this makes sense to you guys. I dont get it. Christian based morals have to be the most fucked up bunch of cold hearted indifferences I've ever seen. This makes sense to you lot, while it proves glaringly cold and inhumane from where I stand. And I am stereotyping? I am at least never justifying the loss of a precious gift of life that some God/Gods/Goddesses gave/nobodies.

I dont get it. I'm sick of asking for explanations and getting written off. Christianity can suck it up. You're misunderstood because you cannot/choose not to explain why.

Call this sidetrackng and a relentless Christian bash, but I dont see how it fails to tie in with precisely (and ironicly) the very things iron horse for example is talking about.
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