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Old 02-01-2004, 05:30 PM   #31
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Except for Kucinich, and I suppose Sharpton as well, these guys are not liberals. They are centrists. The question is, do you want a centrist in the White House or a neocon? I vote centrist. Like it or not, the centrist/left of center/right of center chooses the President. Look at all of the damn Electoral Votes in the South in particular. Karl Rove wants to nuke Kerry as the Liberal From Hell, a la Atwater with Dukakis.
*holds nose*
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Old 02-01-2004, 05:45 PM   #32
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Of course given the choice between a conservative Republican and a centrist Democrat I'd choose the Democrat everytime. However, I think some people take that to mean the Democratic party should simply nominate someone who has a good chance of beating Bush, rather than someone who would be a good President. What's the point in electing a President because he's not quite as bad as the next guy? John Edwards: not quite as anti-gay-marriage as George Bush. Joe Lieberman: not quite as pro-censorship as the opposition. John Kerry: only voted for war once. What's the point? Things might not get any worse for four years if they're elected President, but they're not going to get better either as long as we're voting for a candidate on the basis that he's not quite as bad as the next guy and not on the basis that he'll do something positive with his time in office.

I keep hearing from my Blairite friends that I should support Blair because New Labour might not be perfect, but they're better than the Tories. Tell me how that's supposed to inspire anyone to get out and get involved in a campaign. How are you supposed to get excited over a political party or a candidate because they're not as bad as the opposition. I want to vote for a political party because I like what they're doing, not because I hate what the opposition are doing.

</rant>
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Old 02-01-2004, 06:12 PM   #33
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Look, I'm all for Bush packing his bags and getting the hell out. I can't stand the guy. He's just a chicken hawk.

So yes, I think that in this instance, getting him out may be the top priority. I don't think that any of the nominated Dems could possibly be worse than him.

That said, don't you get a bit tired of constantly choosing the lesser of the two evils? It's like a cycle people get stuck in and then can't get out of. I would not vote for the Dems were I an American - I'd vote for the Greens. There are alternatives out there but so long as we adopt this defeatist attitude, we'll never get anything done.

There is also of course the possibility that the US may be the most right wing Western nation out there, and that anything too far from center (in the left direction) will never win. I hope that is not the case, because as exhibited by every other Western nation, things like universal health care are possible and morally correct. If you support having your country run by the corporations, for the corporations, then that's another thing alltogether.
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Old 02-01-2004, 07:20 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Look, I'm all for Bush packing his bags and getting the hell out. I can't stand the guy. He's just a chicken hawk.

So yes, I think that in this instance, getting him out may be the top priority. I don't think that any of the nominated Dems could possibly be worse than him.

That said, don't you get a bit tired of constantly choosing the lesser of the two evils? It's like a cycle people get stuck in and then can't get out of. I would not vote for the Dems were I an American - I'd vote for the Greens. There are alternatives out there but so long as we adopt this defeatist attitude, we'll never get anything done.
Yes, I get tired of having to vote for the lesser of two evils. I wish we had the equivalent of a Labor Party, or a New Democratic (the Canadian leftist party) Party here. The closest thing we have is the Greens. We can vote for the Greens. But Bush is a divisive President, and there are people up in arms who want to send him packing to Texas in November, including people who voted for him in 2000. Personally I want to send him back, too. That means voting for a centrist because it's the U.S, which doesn't have a viable leftist party. It's a tough call every four years. I held my nose and voted for Gore in 2000. My own two sisters voted for Nader. Given a choice between a centrist and a neocon, I vote for a centrist. At least he'll fire Rumsfeld, Rice and won't have Cheney a heartbeat away from the Presidency.
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Old 02-01-2004, 07:46 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And in the 1960s the South wasn't ready to deal with the civil rights movement. Does that mean that people should have backed off and waited until there were a few less racists before they demanded equal rights for Black people?
Precisely Fizz. It is ridiculous to wait til America is 'ready' to deal with or face the idea a fully legal state recognised marriage between 2 men/women. It's just balking. And also kinda inaccurate. I'm sure there are plenty of homosexuals who are more than ready.
Still more reason why I am for compulsory voting in other countries. Make your politicians acountable. Force them to face the issues which involve more than some convenient target group of society.
/sidetrack
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Old 02-01-2004, 08:40 PM   #36
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Precisely Fizz. It is ridiculous to wait til America is 'ready' to deal with or face the idea a fully legal state recognised marriage between 2 men/women. It's just balking. And also kinda inaccurate. I'm sure there are plenty of homosexuals who are more than ready.
Still more reason why I am for compulsory voting in other countries. Make your politicians acountable. Force them to face the issues which involve more than some convenient target group of society.
/sidetrack
I am trying to think, if we had compulsory voting would the U.S. have a *viable* left-wing party? That really is the $64,000 question here. The touchy issue here is viability. The perception here is that it's not where I want it to be in terms of viability.
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Old 02-01-2004, 10:34 PM   #37
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Sorry to keep sidetracking this thread, but with viability do you mean it cant fit the liberal mindset verte? I guess this would almost be another thread on its own, but its not something most Americans as in this case, even consider so is not worth it...Just wondering though.
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Old 02-01-2004, 10:43 PM   #38
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i just want to clarify something that i am all for gay marriage. i just defend edwards because i really like him. lets be honest, how often do you come across a candidate, or any person for that matter, where you agree on EVERY SINGLE issue. as long as you believe that a person is a good, strong leader with their hearts and minds in the right place, republican or democrat, that's what matters.
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:31 PM   #39
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Originally posted by U2andPolitix
i just want to clarify something that i am all for gay marriage. i just defend edwards because i really like him. lets be honest, how often do you come across a candidate, or any person for that matter, where you agree on EVERY SINGLE issue. as long as you believe that a person is a good, strong leader with their hearts and minds in the right place, republican or democrat, that's what matters.
When that issue runs to the core of who you are, then you aren't so forgiving.

I'll only vote for Edwards, if he becomes the candidate against Bush. He'll definitely be an improvement over the current guy.

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Old 02-02-2004, 10:47 AM   #40
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I know what you mean politix. I don't always agree with people I think are qualified to be president. I really do not agree with the neocons who are currently in office and would prefer a moderate. I really want a moderate *as opposed to* a neocon in the White House. I'm going to disagree with said moderate on some issues, like gay marriage. I have the right to disagree with them. The guy whose views I like the most is Kucinich. I am not sure he can beat the neocons, however. I'll vote for a moderate opponent of the neocons if he is the nominee. The idiots made a joke out of our primary in Alabama by putting it in June. The nominations are already decided by the time we have it. Our party leaders need to have their heads examined.
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Old 02-02-2004, 03:18 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2andPolitix
i just want to clarify something that i am all for gay marriage. i just defend edwards because i really like him. lets be honest, how often do you come across a candidate, or any person for that matter, where you agree on EVERY SINGLE issue. as long as you believe that a person is a good, strong leader with their hearts and minds in the right place, republican or democrat, that's what matters.
Actually, whether a candidate supports gay rights or not is a big enough "single issue" to affect my vote. If a candidate doesn't support gay rights then s/he believes that it's okay for some citizens of society to be discriminated against for no good reason and that's not someone I want to see holding public office.

And if, as you've suggested in the case of John Edwards, they privately aren't opposed to gay marriage, but don't have the courage of their convictions to stand up and say so in public, well why would I want to elect a politician who cares more about his/her political career than about doing the right thing.
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Old 02-02-2004, 04:36 PM   #42
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I think this is in part, at least, a "cultural divide". The U.S. is far more conservative about social issues than either Europe or Canada is. There are some of us who groan about Americans, particularly in the South, "dragging their feet" on this issue. Two of my best friends are a gay couple, a couple of guys in a small Alabama town who are really fish out of water in their political landscape. It is not a pretty picture. It's insane. You never know when a gay couple might be your neighbors.
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Old 02-02-2004, 04:45 PM   #43
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Edwards has stated that while he is not in favor of gay marriage, he is, at least, against a constitutional amendment banning it, and thinks it should be left up to the states.

Well, it's better than what we have now.
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:28 PM   #44
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Lets be honest, as democrats/independents perhaps some republicans, whatever you are, we really need to make a sacrifice on some of the issues and rally around the guy who we think has the best chance of getting bush out of office. I personally believe that man is John Kerry and that John Edwards would make a great VP. Sure they're not exactly as open on gay marriage as we would like, but that's what we've got, and they would certainly begin the path to equality MUCH faster than anyone in this administration would.

that's my two cents anyway. i can understand why y'all want them to be stronger on gay marriage i wish they would be too but as i said, this is what we have for now and they would start a better precedent for equality than bush. i know this is a highly redundant post i just want to get my point across.
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Old 02-02-2004, 07:30 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2andPolitix
we really need to make a sacrifice on some of the issues
Maybe, maybe not. But you also need to recognize that there are many people unwilling (and rightly so) to sacrifice on this or any other specific issue.

verte, I agree about the cultural divide. Great point!
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