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Old 09-22-2005, 02:32 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Boy, that card looks familiar.
So was the point of this thread to berate a foreign culture/religion and subsequently prop up your own as some ideal? That's the explicit definition of "ethnocentrism."

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Old 09-22-2005, 02:38 PM   #17
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If we embrace multiculturalism, can we honestly turn around and support cultural protectionism?
Embracing multiculturism by definition means respecting cultural differences.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:45 PM   #18
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Embracing multiculturism by definition means respecting cultural differences.


while i wholly agree with the above definition, is there a point where that ends and universalist norms of human rights (which are, i do admit, a western construct) begins?

i'm thinking specifically about female genital mutilation.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:51 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Irvine511




while i wholly agree with the above definition, is there a point where that ends and universalist norms of human rights (which are, i do admit, a western construct) begins?

i'm thinking specifically about female genital mutilation.
Yes, absolutely. When does point begin? I'm not sure. Perhaps when a country's own citizens begin to voice opposition to what was until that point accepted as a cultural tradition, which is certainly the case with female mutilation.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:53 PM   #20
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If this thread were about that
the replies would have been different


In India they do not even have on screen kissing in movies

I don't live there and "get" their culture




American culture must seem bizarre to many outsiders, our high tolerance for violence and fear of the nude human body
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If we embrace multiculturalism, can we honestly turn around and support cultural protectionism?
Is that what you were trying to coax out of this? I don't know; seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's not as if they were Indian Jews getting married at the synagogue in Cochin or Bombay--they were (clearly) secular tourists getting married in a "traditional Hindu ceremony" (bit of a misnomer, given the bride and groom weren't Hindus--though Christian churches here marry openly non-Christian couples all the time, something I've never understood).

If you want a "traditional Hindu ceremony," then best read up on what the conduct expected at them is, in my view. Not to do so is disrespectful at best and could lead to (as here) unintentional illegal indecency, at worst. Nowhere in India is a public smooch a good idea, anyway; even in Bollywood, it's still quite rare.

Pushkar--which I've been to twice--is a major Hindu pilgrimage center, not the Las Vegas of India, so I'm not surprised this would be the response to such a thing there. I am somewhat surprised that this couple were able to arrange a "Hindu" ceremony in the first place--although the Brahma temple is among the most famous in India, and therefore more used to and accommodating of tourists than others. In smaller towns and villages, temples are quite often closed to non-Hindus.

Regarding "cultural pollution"--that phrase is a standard rhetorical trope in Indian (media) English, much like "family values" is here. In fact, it means pretty much the same thing in usage--i.e., it's a way of getting people worked up about changing value systems by portraying the changes as an assault on the society or culture. In this case, the threat would not be Hindus clamoring to snog at weddings--remember, these people weren't even Indians--but rather, how far Hindus should go in allowing tourists to "make themselves at home" in what is, after all, a house of God from their point of view.

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
it´s also strange that an Israeli couple is upset about that, I wonder what would happen if they kissed wildly just when there is a Jewish tradition. I am sure some Jewish people would feel disturbed.
A kiss is a perfectly normal part of modern Jewish weddings, including Orthodox ones. It was certainly part of mine!

Quote:
I know the region of Pushkar is said to be very beautiful. Have you ever heard how the traditional weddings are performed there? One of my friends just visited India last December and told me about the time he was invited to that wedding.
South Asian politics is my academic field, so I travel to India often. I have attended several Hindu weddings, although never in Pushkar. They are indeed fantastically elaborate events, although guests do not generally watch that much of the ceremony itself because (if it's really a full-on traditional one) it lasts for hours.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:57 PM   #22
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Originally posted by deep


American culture must seem bizarre to many outsiders, our high tolerance for violence and fear of the nude human body
Indeed. It also seems bizarre to insiders like me.
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Old 09-22-2005, 03:17 PM   #23
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Originally posted by yolland


Is that what you were trying to coax out of this? I don't know; seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's not as if they were Indian Jews getting married at the synagogue in Cochin or Bombay--they were (clearly) secular tourists getting married in a "traditional Hindu ceremony" (bit of a misnomer, given the bride and groom weren't Hindus--though Christian churches here marry openly non-Christian couples all the time, something I've never understood).

If you want a "traditional Hindu ceremony," then best read up on what the conduct expected at them is, in my view. Not to do so is disrespectful at best and could lead to (as here) unintentional illegal indecency, at worst. Nowhere in India is a public smooch a good idea, anyway; even in Bollywood, it's still quite rare.

Pushkar--which I've been to twice--is a major Hindu pilgrimage center, not the Las Vegas of India, so I'm not surprised this would be the response to such a thing there. I am somewhat surprised that this couple were able to arrange a "Hindu" ceremony in the first place--although the Brahma temple is among the most famous in India, and therefore more used to and accommodating of tourists than others. In smaller towns and villages, temples are quite often closed to non-Hindus.

Regarding "cultural pollution"--that phrase is a standard rhetorical trope in Indian (media) English, much like "family values" is here. In fact, it means pretty much the same thing in usage--i.e., it's a way of getting people worked up about changing value systems by portraying the changes as an assault on the society or culture. In this case, the threat would not be Hindus clamoring to snog at weddings--remember, these people weren't even Indians--but rather, how far Hindus should go in allowing tourists to "make themselves at home" in what is, after all, a house of God from their point of view.


A kiss is a perfectly normal part of modern Jewish weddings, including Orthodox ones. It was certainly part of mine!


South Asian politics is my academic field, so I travel to India often. I have attended several Hindu weddings, although never in Pushkar. They are indeed fantastically elaborate events, although guests do not generally watch that much of the ceremony itself because (if it's really a full-on traditional one) it lasts for hours.


terrific, informative post.



am going to a big Hindu wedding next year in SanFran. can't wait.
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:33 PM   #24
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Originally posted by deep
if some European got a ticket or fine for going topless on a USA public beach
her countrymen would probably think American customs are overly restrictive
And I'd guess quite a number of people in here would say that we shouldn't have a standard, because, after all, "who's standard should we use."
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:37 PM   #25
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And I'd guess quite a number of people in here would say that we shouldn't have a standard, because, after all, "who's standard should we use."


but we do have a standard in the US. women do not go topless unless it is an official, or unofficial, nude beach. it's very organic.

thus, a German woman would have to follow these rules if she were sunbathing in Florida.

in my opinion, i could care less about bare breasts on a beach, and i think the need to cover them up comes from our country's continual infantilization of male heterosexuality -- you know, the boys-will-be-boys.

but it's still the norm, so that's that.
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:24 PM   #26
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I'd say that if you're getting married in a foreign country, brush up on the laws and marriage customs of that particular country. Many Americans get married in Turkey. Trust me, they've researched the place and its culture until they're blue in the face.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
And I'd guess quite a number of people in here would say that we shouldn't have a standard, because, after all, "who's standard should we use."
Like who? You're in here a lot more than I am, but I can't think of many, honestly. I can think of several, like Irvine, who I'd predict would support allowing topless beaches (for example); and then there's quite a few, like me, who don't care one way or the other...but really, I can't think of many whom I'd predict a "standards are inherently evil" argument from.

There's a difference between opposing the status quo--or one group's attempts to monopolize the right to set it--and arguing that there should be no status quo at all.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:47 AM   #28
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I can think of several, like Irvine, who I'd predict would support allowing topless beaches (for example); and then there's quite a few, like me, who don't care one way or the other...


?

luckily, for my interests, the norm is topless ...

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Old 09-23-2005, 02:35 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Irvine511
?

luckily, for my interests, the norm is topless ...

Oh, I know! I'm referring to the position in your previous post, which (at the risk of presumptuousness) is roughly what I'd have predicted it to be, based on previous threads on related topics. Yeah, now that I read my wording, I guess it could be taken as "now you know if it's about boobs, Irvine will be so all over that!"

Anyway, what I really want to know is who all these alleged snarky relativists are. I'm just not seeing them.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM   #30
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