Creationism isn't Right

[A_Wanderer]

Evolution is a theory that elegantly explains the scientific facts better than other explanations for the diversity of life on Earth and has been verified by the major discoveries in biology and geology since it was first put forward.

Creationism and intelligent design each hold the fallacy that they depend on untestable elements thus rendering them unscientific and unworthy for discussion on the same level.

Discuss.

 

[Irvine511]

oh yeah?

prove to me that God didn't create the Earth in 6 days, Mr. Smarty-Pants.

 

[A_Wanderer]

how else are you going to defend creationism?

do you not believe in the Theory of Gravity or the Theory of Plate Tectonics either?

the blood pressure thing is a sign that your beliefs are being challenged. accept the challenge, or don't.

I read an account of how Plate Tectonics was rejected in the early 20th Century by the American geological community and it paints a much more subtle picture of why and how it was rejected and how other theories made more sense at the time - it's great because it shows how smart people can be wrong even for the right reasons and how an actual scientific debate takes place; so maybe that ones a little unfair. As for gravity you have to remember that Newtons theory of gravity were improved by Einstein and reconciling a theory of gravity with other forces still hasn't occured. Gravity happens and our explanations for it change as we learn more - the essence of good science.

 

[martha]

What about evolution as a means to God's ends? It makes a whole lotta sense when considered alongside an understanding of karma and transmigration of souls.

 

[deep]

what is the point ?

the few Religious people that will share their opinions in this forum

are supposed to step up and take a few on the chin?

 

[A_Wanderer]

What about evolution as a means to God's ends? It makes a whole lotta sense when considered alongside an understanding of karma and transmigration of souls.

Can we include other crazy voodoo too? How can it make sense when theres no need for it. God isn't needed to make evolution work since it's purely a function of varying replication and differential reproductive success; putting in untestable metaphysical ideas like God or Karma which are equally untestable and effectively untrue makes the entire concept wrong.

The only reason to ruin a good thing with theism is if you have to compromise one to avoid compromising the other.

 

[A_Wanderer]

what is the point ?

the few Religious people that will share their opinions in this forum

are supposed to step up and take a few on the chin?

Why derail a perfectly good Iraq thread?

 

[2861U2]

First off, if you're looking for scientific evidence to prove or validate Christianity, you wont find it. That being said, I dont believe in evolution. I believe 100% in creationism. I believe God created Adam and Eve, day and night, the plants and the animals, the sea and the sky in 6 days. Christianity is a religion. It takes FAITH to believe what you believe, and it will never, ever be proven scientifically, and quite frankly, I dont want it to be.

To me, the athiest approach of the big bang is hard to believe. To me, THAT takes faith to believe. Creationism is a no-brainer to me and surely millions of Christians across the planet. You're right that creation will never and cannot be proven, but science isnt everything.

If you consider yourself a Christian and want to believe in evolution, knock yourself out, but thats not for me. I refuse to accept the notion that my great great... grandfather was a monkey.

 

[martha]

Can we include other crazy voodoo too? How can it make sense when theres no need for it. God isn't needed to make evolution work since it's purely a function of varying replication and differential reproductive success; putting in untestable metaphysical ideas like God or Karma which are equally untestable and effectively untrue makes the entire concept wrong.

The only reason to ruin a good thing with theism is if you have to compromise one to avoid compromising the other.

You realize you're as absolute and as ridiculously rigid as the Christians you bait and make fun of, don't you?

 

[Diemen]

what is the point ?

the few Religious people that will share their opinions in this forum

are supposed to step up and take a few on the chin?

I agree.

I am right and you are wrong. Now, come join in this thread so I can continue to tell you you're wrong!

 

[deep]

You realize you're as absolute and as ridiculously rigid as the Christians you bait and make fun of, don't you?

funny, Martha

recently I also concluded the Wanderer was one of the most "Religious" posters in this forum, too.

 

[Diemen]

Christianity is a religion. It takes FAITH to believe what you believe

Well said.

If you consider yourself a Christian and want to believe in evolution, knock yourself out, but thats not for me. I refuse to accept the notion that my great great... grandfather was a monkey.

Honest question: why is the notion that our ancient ancestors were primates so offensive?

 

[INDY500]

I read an account of how Plate Tectonics was rejected in the early 20th Century by the American geological community and it paints a much more subtle picture of why and how it was rejected and how other theories made more sense at the time - it's great because it shows how smart people can be wrong even for the right reasons and how an actual scientific debate takes place;

Alfred Wegener -- opposed by the "scientific consensus" of his time but eventually proven correct, by the truth.

A history lesson some of the "the debate is over" global warming alarmists might take heed of.

 

[Bluer White]

Teach evolution in science class, teach some creationism as part of philosophy class, and let the kids fill in the blanks.

Not many in this forum are about to have their minds changed.

 

[A_Wanderer]

You realize you're as absolute and as ridiculously rigid as the Christians you bait and make fun of, don't you?

I know, im so narrow - but if I would accept God when there was evidence does that make me agnostic?

As far as being religious I would call my beliefs on existential matters conditional uncertainty; I can't reject or accept the absolute truth of higher order in the universe because theres nothing to make that judgement on and the absence of evidence and the better explanations for what has been taken as proof (emotions, morals, life, universal constants etc.) effectively negate them and make a materialistic universe more plausible. Being rigid in philosophy towards it (one that questions the results and is open to change - unlike religions) is different from being religious (theres no leap of faith in unbelief) and putting them on the same level is as wrong as expecting to put the beliefs of a Hindu on par with that of a Christian (cutting both ways).

 

[A_Wanderer]

Alfred Wegener -- opposed by the "scientific consensus" of his time but eventually proven correct, by the truth.

A history lesson some of the "the debate is over" global warming alarmists might take heed of.

A fact based one, as is climate change; although having politicians bluster their bullshit does distort it all.

 

[deep]

I don't have the absolute truth on this, I do accept science, where it is verifiable.


but, when I was a believer in a God creation theory

one question I had was
why monkeys, apes, chimps?

If God did not create them
it would be so much easier.

Believers could say, "Look at man, created in God's Image! There is no other creature like him. Perhaps, God's plan was for wolves, coyotes, bears, weasels and the like to evolve from a common ancestor. But not man. We were created in God's image. Us and us alone."

So why monkeys?
Did God need practice?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Will the progeny of the human species ask the same questions? When we cease to be homo sapiens are we no longer in God's image?

 

[deep]

Will the progeny of the human species ask the same questions? When we cease to be homo sapiens are we no longer in God's image?

Does science support that all species keep
adapting and evolving.

Aren't alligators pretty much the same as a million years ago?

 

[INDY500]

Will the progeny of the human species ask the same questions? When we cease to be homo sapiens are we no longer in God's image?

Why would man evolve? We no longer have any natural enemies, we can change our environment to suit us, and we can enhance ourselves in other ways to survive; surgery, transplants, steroids, diet, etc.

Any changes would be microevolution, not macroevolution into a new species...or extinction I suppose.

 

[Laura1971]

evolution vs. christianity

It is laughable that any reaonably intelligent person would even entertain the notion that Genesis 1 and 2 are factually based. I am a Christian too but am smart enough to know that there are nuances in the Bible and that the importance is Jesus' message and his lessons, not a literal reading of the Bible. You would have had to completely suspend any link with reality to believe that Adam and Eve were the first male and female, that Noah actually put two of every animal on an Ark and survived a flood that wiped out the rest of the planet, and that Jonah actually dwelled inside the belly of a whale. Get a brain. These are stories, important as they may be, but to be read in context and with thoughtfulness and an open heart and mind.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Why would man evolve? We no longer have any natural enemies, we can change our environment to suit us, and we can enhance ourselves in other ways to survive; surgery, transplants, steroids, diet, etc.

The mind.

 

[INDY500]

The mind.

Well it's not going to get bigger without changes to the female body as well.

 

[deep]

What a larger incision scar?

 

[Chizip]

Re: evolution vs. christianity

It is laughable that any reaonably intelligent person would even entertain the notion that Genesis 1 and 2 are factually based. I am a Christian too but am smart enough to know that there are nuances in the Bible and that the importance is Jesus' message and his lessons, not a literal reading of the Bible. You would have had to completely suspend any link with reality to believe that Adam and Eve were the first male and female, that Noah actually put two of every animal on an Ark and survived a flood that wiped out the rest of the planet, and that Jonah actually dwelled inside the belly of a whale. Get a brain. These are stories, important as they may be, but to be read in context and with thoughtfulness and an open heart and mind.

psh, didn't you know that Dinosaurs sailed on Noah's arc?

Link

PETERSBURG, Ky (Reuters) - Like many modern museums, the newest U.S. tourist attraction includes some awesome exhibits -- roaring dinosaurs and a life-sized ship.

ADVERTISEMENT

But only at the Creation Museum in Kentucky do the dinosaurs sail on the ship -- Noah's Ark, to be precise.

The Christian creators of the sprawling museum, unveiled on Saturday, hope to draw as many as half a million people each year to their state-of-the-art project, which depicts the Bible's first book, Genesis, as literal truth.

While the $27 million museum near Cincinnati has drawn snickers from media and condemnation from U.S. scientists, those who believe God created the heavens and the Earth in six days about 6,000 years ago say their views are finally being represented.

"What we've done here is to give people an opportunity to hear information that is not readily available ... to challenge them that really you can believe the Bible's history," said Ken Ham, president of the group Answers in Genesis that founded the museum.

Here exhibits show the Grand Canyon took just days to form during Noah's flood, dinosaurs coexisted with humans and had a place on Noah's Ark, and Cain married his sister to people the earth, among other Biblical wonders.

Scientists, secularists and moderate Christians have pledged to protest the museum's public opening on Monday. An airplane trailing a "Thou Shalt Not Lie" banner buzzed overhead during the museum's opening news conference.

Opponents argue that children who see the exhibits will be confused when they learn in school that the universe is 14 billion years old rather than 6,000.

"Teachers don't deserve a student coming into class saying 'Gee Mrs. Brown, I went to this fancy museum and it said you're teaching me a lie,"' Dr. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, told reporters before the museum opened.

A Gallup poll last year showed almost half of Americans believe that humans did not evolve but were created by God in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Three of 10 Republican presidential candidates said in a recent debate that they did not believe in evolution.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Re: Re: evolution vs. christianity

Link

A Gallup poll last year showed almost half of Americans believe that humans did not evolve but were created by God in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Wow.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Re: evolution vs. christianity

almost half of Americans

would those would be the Bush voters?


we need do get creationism in the schools
soon if we want to be a two party country.

 

[martha]

(theres no leap of faith in unbelief)

Oh yes there is.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Yeah, there is. If I tell two people there's a tiger in the bathroom, behind the closed door, the person who believes that is taking a leap of faith, but the person who thinks that's an absolutely ridiculous suggestion for a bunch of logical reasons is still, without being able to know 100% for sure that there isn't a tiger in the bathroom until the door is opened, basing it on faith. One just might be a more grounded faith than the other, in that one might be believing it because I say it is so and I don't normally make this shit up, and the other disbelieves based on the grounded logic that (a) where the fuck would I get a tiger from in the suburbs of Sydney (b) how the fuck would I get it into the bathroom (c) why is there no other evidence of it outside the bathroom - no trailer attached to my car, no muddy tiger prints or fur in the hallway, me being in possession of all my limbs (etc etc etc).

Not believing in a religious sense is exactly the same leap of faith as believing - seeing as if it wasn't, it wouldn't be because you were able to actually prove the non-existence, but you can't just as much as 'they' can't prove the existence - so it's a leap for both of you.

 

[martha]

^ Nice analogy.