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Old 06-08-2007, 12:10 PM   #91
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Originally posted by Snowlock

So if we're talking about competing theories, and you wish to BAN one of them,
What's the scientific evidence for Creationism?

Oh, that's right. Conservatives only believe in science when it backs their play or saves their lives.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:12 PM   #92
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Originally posted by Irvine511
no children yet, but if/when my eventual partner and i choose to adopt, religion just might be a part of his/her upbringing.
He won't let you adopt. His Jesus allows him to hate you.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:13 PM   #93
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What you say is superstition others say is science and vice versa. Science thought the world was flat at one point. A pulsar violates nearly every physical law we have; yet it exists. The Missing Link has never been found, the death of the dinosaurs have never been explained I could go on and on about scientific theory that is being taught as scientific fact; especially evolution.

So if we're talking about competing theories, and you wish to BAN one of them, that's the definition of intolerance and you're at minimum just as guilty as those nasty evil conservatives of it.

"that shit" yeah, you being the essence of tolerance, I can see why you would be so worried about pointing out intolerance in others.


i think i already answered this, but i'll say it again: a scientific theory is vastly different from a "theory," and creationism and evolution do not belong in the same sentence. one is science, the other is not. they are not in competition. one has enormous scientific weight, the other has none. the comparison itself is anti-intellectual, anti-science, and profoundly disspiriting. it should be "BANNED" from a science class because it isn't science. it's "shit" science.

good gosh. it's really very simple.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:18 PM   #94
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Originally posted by Irvine511




and i'd argue that's a reinterpretation to fit your beliefs.

please tell me how we use the Declaration of Independence to govern. because we don't. it's a historical document, yes, but it is not a document used by the government in the business of governing.

and it was written by Jefferson, who's about as clear on this issue as anyone.

and some things, like The Pledge, had God inserted in recent times in order to further a political agenda -- to distinguish us from the "godless" Communists. and the "... in God we Trust" came about during the Civil War, and wasn't on paper money until the 1957 as, again, a part of anti-Communist politics.

but, the historical examples you've given prove absolutely nothing. if people want to pray, they're free to, at school, in the workplace, whatever they want. the historical impetus behind the bill of rights was, yes, to prevent a theocracy like you had in europe at the time -- and notice how it's the former theocracies that are now the most secular -- but it doesn't just say "a" religion, as some would like to state, but "religion" itself. nowhere in the oft cited quotes from Jefferson or Madison do they say they just don't want a specific religion, they say "religion" -- an all-inclusive, sweeping term. and most nations, even where this separation is practiced, don't have it specifically written into their constitutions as the US does.

i think it's inappropriate to have "... in God we trust" on the currency. why not "... in Allah we trust" or "... in Zeus we trust."

but i'm not all that upset about it. maybe i should be, but i'm not.

what
You can argue that I'm reinterpreting all you want; but facts are facts. If the Declaration of indepedence isn't good enough, every Congress, including the continental ones, opened with prayer.

And again you're interpreting Madison & Jefferson just to fit your lack of beliefs. So they didn't say "a". Every state had an official religion at that time; to have a state without an official religion was quite a novel thing. Also, the US had been largely settled because of its religious tolerance. So to suddenly interpret the missing letter "a" as suddenly meaning an absense of religion in a historical perspective is a reach.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #95
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Why isn't anyone answering my question regarding whether or not all these people who have disabled children caused their disabilities by sinning? That is after all, what the creation museum is saying. That congenital defects are a result of sinning.

We should be tolerant of this garbage?
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:22 PM   #96
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Originally posted by Irvine511



so long as our laws remain rigorously secular, yes, it will go better.

secularism makes room for everybody.
You seem to be trying to have it both ways. There's a huge difference between a society with secular laws allowing for religious freedom (which I support) and a secular population. You imply that our nation will become more secular. I hope not. Judeo-Christian values have served Western culture very, very well. Giving us not only the most prosperous people in history but the most free.
However, in Europe, a secular population "made room" for Nazism. Then Communism sprang forth in the absence of religious populace unable to morally differentiate between good and evil and 100 million people died in the last century.
And now that void in Europe is being filled with radical Islamism.

I'm not worried about the country becoming less White. But only evil follows the decline of Judeo-Christian believes.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:24 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock
[B]

You can argue that I'm reinterpreting all you want; but facts are facts. If the Declaration of indepedence isn't good enough, every Congress, including the continental ones, opened with prayer.
the day we start to use the DOI to govern, then you'll have a point.



[q]And again you're interpreting Madison & Jefferson just to fit your lack of beliefs. So they didn't say "a". Every state had an official religion at that time; to have a state without an official religion was quite a novel thing. Also, the US had been largely settled because of its religious tolerance. So to suddenly interpret the missing letter "a" as suddenly meaning an absense of religion in a historical perspective is a reach. [/q]


they didn't say "a." that kind of ends the discussion. and SCOTUS decisions have buttressed my point consistently through the past 200 years. we agree that not having an official religion was a novel ideal, but it went further than that -- to have a government that was separated from religion. the government has a place for the religious, absolutely, but the mechanism of governing itself must remain secular.

what you see as the absence of religion isn't that -- what secularism does is enable *all* religions, and the irreligious, to practice as they see fit without any interference from the government, and vice versa. secularism doesn't care if you are religious or not; it merely guarantees that one is never valued more than any other by the state.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:27 PM   #98
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i think i already answered this, but i'll say it again: a scientific theory is vastly different from a "theory," and creationism and evolution do not belong in the same sentence. one is science, the other is not. they are not in competition. one has enormous scientific weight, the other has none. the comparison itself is anti-intellectual, anti-science, and profoundly disspiriting. it should be "BANNED" from a science class because it isn't science. it's "shit" science.

good gosh. it's really very simple.
You keep saying this as fact, but it's not. Evolution is theory; gravity is fact.

Come on, you're worse than any conservative; admit it!! Scream and piss and moan about how intolerant conservatives are of other people when in fact all you're really upset about is the fact that people don't agree with you. That's what you find as intolerable.

Well you're WRONG. Evolution CAN be taught right next to intelligent design because both are theory; both have their strong and weak points, and neither is going to do anything other than given your little heathen children something else to think about; and that's good for them AND you.

Or maybe you're not as secure in your beliefs as you'd like to think and you just can't handle the competition.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:28 PM   #99
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Originally posted by INDY500


You seem to be trying to have it both ways. There's a huge difference between a society with secular laws allowing for religious freedom (which I support) and a secular population. You imply that our nation will become more secular. I hope not. Judeo-Christian values have served Western culture very, very well. Giving us not only the most prosperous people in history but the most free.


"most free" is way, way, way subjective -- your average Canadian and Dutch person is more free than your average American.

i'm not advocating, necessarily, a secular population. i haven't said that at all. what i am advocating is *secularism*, especially as it pertains to the functions of the state, not least of which is public education.

secularism protects the religious and non-religious alike. and that seems to drive the religious crazy.

some questions though: do Judeo-Christian values enable you to be tolerant of wild income inequality? how about a poverty rate of 12%? did Judeo-Christian values support slavery? support Jim Crow?

i remain a big fan of the US (with the exception of the past 7 years), but if you are going to credit the nation's successes to Judeo-Christian values, then you must credit the shortcomings and tragedies as well.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:29 PM   #100
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I dont buy that. I dont want a Bible class in every school in America, but I do want children to be able to speak the word "God." I want them to say the Pledge every morning (which of course isnt even about God, but country). I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

If you were a true Christian you wouldn't want your children pledging their alligience to a flag, it's idol worship.

And YOU may want a Christmas break, but what about your Jewish neighbor? What do they want? Can you at least see the arrogance in your thinking?
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:30 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock
Evolution CAN be taught right next to intelligent design because both are theory;


Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock

your little heathen children








It's all I can do at this point.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:31 PM   #102
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Originally posted by INDY500
However, in Europe, a secular population "made room" for Nazism. Then Communism sprang forth in the absence of religious populace unable to morally differentiate between good and evil and 100 million people died in the last century.
And now that void in Europe is being filled with radical Islamism.

Slavery prospered within a Christian tradition.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:34 PM   #103
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By providing these expamples of religion in our federal history I am saying that these were religious men. They would not want to see their intent misenterpreted to the extent people like you have. Given the fact that religion was pervasive throughout the creation of our government, it's illogical to assume that what they were really after was banning religion FROM government. It's the opposite of freedom of religion and against their intent entirely.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irvine511
the government has a place for the religious, absolutely, but the mechanism of governing itself must remain secular. [/QUOTE

Except, if you're banning religion across the board in then you're saying the government DOESN'T have a place for religion. No one wants a theocracy and that's that the article in the BoR was set up to prevent. There weren't even public schools in large part at that time, so taking that article and going to the extreme with it and banning religion from ALL public institutions entirely is in fact bringing about exactly what the forefathers were trying to prevent.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:35 PM   #104
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Originally posted by Snowlock


You keep saying this as fact, but it's not. Evolution is theory; gravity is fact.


you really, really need to look up what is and what is not considered a scientific theory.


[q]Come on, you're worse than any conservative; admit it!! Scream and piss and moan about how intolerant conservatives are of other people when in fact all you're really upset about is the fact that people don't agree with you. That's what you find as intolerable.[/q]

but it is garbage. i don't have tolerance for indefensible arguments. i don't have tolerance for bad thinking. i don't have tolerance for willful self-delusion. this has nothing to do with what one means by "tolerance" and what we should and should not tolerate. you're conflating of two different things. words have different meanings in different contexts.

your math teacher is not going to tolerate the answer of "5" to the question of "2+2." that is totally different than "tolerating" the lesbian mothers at the end of the block.

there is such a thing as bad thinking. it has nothing to do with agreement. it has to do with the facts being presented and whether or not they can stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

creationism, in the context of science, has NOTHING.





[q]Well you're WRONG. Evolution CAN be taught right next to intelligent design because both are theory; both have their strong and weak points, and neither is going to do anything other than given your little heathen children something else to think about; and that's good for them AND you.[/q]

no! i'm sorry! any scientist would toss you out of the classroom or give you a big fat F on a test! end of story!



Quote:
Or maybe you're not as secure in your beliefs as you'd like to think and you just can't handle the competition.
and this is the new tactic of the Creationists. "teach the controversy."

except for the fact that those of us here on earth, who read textbooks, know that there is no controversy.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:35 PM   #105
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Slavery prospered within a Christian tradition.
Slavery prospered within Buddism, Hinduism and was quite popular with the muslims.
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