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Old 06-08-2007, 10:47 AM   #61
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You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:47 AM   #62
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Originally posted by Snowlock


You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.


the push back from "God" is really a push back from the Judaeo-Christian God -- since it's only ever that God that some insist belongs in the public sphere in a country where the separation of church/state has been enormously successful, both for the church and for the state -- you never see other religions demanding that their various teachings and tenets be placed in federal buildings, be built as enormous monuments and placed outside of federal courts, or instructed in classrooms.

so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:51 AM   #63
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the push back from "God" is really a push back from the Judaeo-Christian God -- since it's only ever that God that some insist belongs in the public sphere in a country where the separation of church/state has been enormously successful, both for the church and for the state -- you never see other religions demanding that their various teachings and tenets be placed in federal buildings, be built as enormous monuments and placed outside of federal courts, or instructed in classrooms.

so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.
I dont buy that. I dont want a Bible class in every school in America, but I do want children to be able to speak the word "God." I want them to say the Pledge every morning (which of course isnt even about God, but country). I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

Winter break? Winter break!!??

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Old 06-08-2007, 10:51 AM   #64
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I'm not offended if somebody believes in evolution. If they want to teach evolution in classrooms, fine. People like me will just shrug it off because we have a different belief of what happened. I thought the point of this thread was to explain why I believe in creationism, which I did, not to bash those who believe in evolution, or vice-versa.


are there are other parts of science you don't believe in either because you don't want to?
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:53 AM   #65
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I dont buy that. I dont want a Bible class in every school in America, but I do want children to be able to speak the word "God." I want them to say the Pledge every morning (which of course isnt even about God, but country). I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

Winter break? Winter break!!??



i'm so sorry you're so oppressed.

truly, the failure of the culture to fully affirm, embrace, and nurture your own personal belief system is a form of oppression and you must suffer immeasurable psychological damage during December when people say "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

how awful. i don't know how you keep it together.

poor thing.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:55 AM   #66
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are there are other parts of science you don't believe in either because you don't want to?
No, I find science very interesting. I have problems when it butts heads with my faith. If my science teacher said out of the blue one day. "It's impossible for a man to live in a fish," I would believe him, except for the one time when I believe it really did happen.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:55 AM   #67
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As someone said, yes, there are things in the Bible that seem far-fetched to have really happened (Jonah in the fish, Moses parting the sea, not to mention all the miracles of Jesus), but I think those things, the large displays of God's power really did occur, and that includes creating the universe. I also agree that parts of the Bible are to be taked literally and parts metaphorically. But when the Bible says, for example, that there were 3 times when God spoke to Jesus (literally spoke, audibly, and the people around Jesus heard Him too), I cant help but believe that that really happened. It's too awesome to not want to believe.
If you agree that parts of the bible are metaphorical, then why is creation not one of them? What makes something worthy of being literal and something else metaphorical?
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:56 AM   #68
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No, I find science very interesting. I have problems when it butts heads with my faith. If my science teacher said out of the blue one day. "It's impossible for a man to live in a fish," I would believe him, except for the one time when I believe it really did happen.


so you really can't get upset when i describe some of your beliefs as willfull ignorance.

because that's what it is.

you're saying, "i believe it all up to this point where i don't believe it." and that's fine. you're perfectly free to believe whatever you want. and i'm free to call you willfully ignorant. and i'm also free to make sure that your own completely subjective belief system isn't taught in public schools to my children.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:57 AM   #69
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so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.
Exactly.

These people so offended about God not being in our schools - how often do you hear them advocating that we celebrate Hanukkah or Diwali? Oh, that's right, never. It's just a guise for Christianity.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:59 AM   #70
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so you really can't get upset when i describe some of your beliefs as willfull ignorance.

and I'm free to call those who don't believe in God ignorant as well.
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:05 AM   #71
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and I'm free to call those who don't believe in God ignorant as well.


you absolutely are.

the difference, to my mind, is that i've got facts to back me up. you have faith. at least with facts we have a common language -- hence, the need for secularization of the schools, of science, of government. we cannot have a meaningful conversation about "God" in a public sense, but we can have a meaningful conversation about science, law, medicine, etc. why? because such things can be measured, quantified, etc.

what people don't understand, sometimes, is that secularization helps the religious as much as it helps the nonreligious. how would you like a state religion? how would you feel when, in 100 years and the majority of Christians in this country are Catholic, if your children had to pray to the blessed mother and had a picture of the Pope up in the classroom?

secularism enables pluraism. secularism must be guarded and defended because there are people out there who seem to need to have their faith affirmed in a very public way, yet never for a moment wonder how a Jew feels in December, and never push it further to realize that, under different circumstance, they could be that Jew in December. or that Christian in Iran.

one of reasons why religion is so successful in the US -- and American Christians are the most powerful, protected, influential group of believers in history, no matter the country or religion -- is because we've kept the state from encroaching on religion and reshaping religion so that it better reflects the goals of the state.

and vice versa.
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:06 AM   #72
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2861U2, do you believe that people who have children with congenital defects are guilty of sinning?

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Apparently there was less sin back then, and therefore fewer mutations in their DNA. Evidently sin, not two copies of the same recessive trait, gives rise to congenital birth defects.
I really want to know if the Christians down the street whose son had a congenital heart defect are responsible for his suffering.
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:07 AM   #73
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Originally posted by Snowlock
You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:08 AM   #74
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I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

But I want a Hannukah Break.
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:10 AM   #75
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i'm so sorry you're so oppressed.

truly, the failure of the culture to fully affirm, embrace, and nurture your own personal belief system is a form of oppression and you must suffer immeasurable psychological damage during December when people say "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

how awful. i don't know how you keep it together.

poor thing.

Christmas of 2005, my and my family did most of our Christmas shopping at Best Buy because they said "Merry Christmas." Walmart, however did not. Christmas of 2006, they switched for some reason. Best Buy did not say "Christmas," Walmart did, and we did most of our shopping there. Call us whatever name you want for doing that, but do not underestimate the number of people in the country who pay attention to things like that.


oh, and anitram, I did not say that quote about the gene defects. But I'll answer with a no. I dont believe that at all. Keep in mind that we are all sinners, but I dont believe our sin causes our children to be sick.
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