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Old 06-13-2007, 09:04 PM   #436
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Originally posted by INDY500
Wow, who are all those evolution-doubting Democrats gonna vote for?
Why on earth would your belief on evolution/creation impact your political vote in any way at all?
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:17 PM   #437
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Why on earth would your belief on evolution/creation impact your political vote in any way at all?
Because this is America.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:03 PM   #438
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Originally posted by INDY500
Wow, who are all those evolution-doubting Democrats gonna vote for?


believe it or not, there are many, many religious voters who are not Republicans.

they also tend to be not white Protestant Evangelicals.
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Old 06-14-2007, 12:22 AM   #439
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I like what Earnie Shavers had to say way back on what ever page it was. . .

I find it interesting that so many Christians feel like they have to believe in six day Creation because "it shows God's power and who cares if we can't explain it" but yet couldn't consider that God might have NOT created the world in six days. . .but might have taken billions of years and conclude "it shows Gods power and who cares if we can't explain it. " Why is God totally able to create in six days but completely prevented from creating in any other way?

Why does six days matter so much? That's the question I wanted the one guy to answer but I guess he's gone now. . .and not much chance of getting the answer from anyone whose left. . .

So I guess I'll answer it myself, at least partially. One possible reason six days matter is because evolution requires life and death over many millenia of years and if you believe that death is a consequence of sin, how could evolution happen BEFORE sin was introduced into the world.

This to me, is obviously a theological question not a scientific one and I wouldn't expect it to enter a science classroom. I think if science seems to contradict our theological teachings, we must conclude that either our scientific understanding is mistaken, or perhaps our theological understanding is off. Right now, I tend to lean more towards the sense that when it comes to six days of literal creation, our theological understanding is what's off.

But again, from a faith perspective I'm not sure why creationism is so absolutely vital.
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:22 AM   #440
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A couple more thoughts:

It would seem the main arguments of six days of creation are strictly theological rather than scientific. I think the reasons many people (including me, sort of) hold to the literal six day creation are largely theological not scientific.

This to me would put a six day literal creation in the same category with a virgin birth or a resurrection, both scientifically impossible (but, I might add, both vital to most practitioners of the Christian faith). Why don't Christians insist that resurrection be taught in biology class? Why don't we insist that science teachers say that "yes, many people believe that when you die--heart and brain stop functioning etc--that's it. There's no coming back. But other's believe that it's possible, scientifically, for a person to come back to life after being dead for several days." You know, teach the controversy and all that. . .

For the record, I believe in the virgin birth and the Resurrection. They are articles of faith for me. I also have a hard time understanding how the world could not have been created in six days from a theological perspective. . .however, if indeed the scientific evidence that something else happened over a longer period of time is as strong as it seems to be than I would have to conclude that obviously my theological understanding is more limited than I might have liked to believe.

Someties we Christians only allow God to be "big" enough to do what we already believe in rather than something that is beyond our understanding.
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Old 06-14-2007, 09:06 AM   #441
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Originally posted by maycocksean

Someties we Christians only allow God to be "big" enough to do what we already believe in rather than something that is beyond our understanding.
I would say that this holds true for non-believers as well. They also tend to limit God to their understanding.



Thoughtful posts as usual, Sean.
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Old 06-14-2007, 09:28 AM   #442
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believe it or not, there are many, many religious voters who are not Republicans.

they also tend to be not white Protestant Evangelicals.
I believe it, but you never would have surmised as much from the last 30 pages would you? A glance back through the posts finds Creation believers only referred to as "conservatives" or "Bush voters."
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Old 06-14-2007, 09:28 AM   #443
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I'm a Believer, and personally, I have no problems with believing that although God created the Universe as we know it; He may not have done it in 6 literal days (the 24 hour periods we know them as.) According to The Bible, God isn't bound by time and space. There's a verse (I believe it's somewhere in Psalms) that says, and I'm paraphrasing, "With The Lord, 1,000 years is as a day, and a day is as 1,000 years." I've always believed that was an example showing how differently God views time than human beings. We see time almost walled-off if you will, in eras, milleniums, centuries, years, month, weeks, days, hours, minutes, etc., but God views time as a constant "now" In other words, today, June 14th, 2007, was as present to Him on June 14th of the year 100 as it is now and vice versa with the latter date I gave. A God not bound by time would probably not say "Ok, I have 144 hours. I better get going!" I believe God could have created the universe in 6 literal days because I believe in a God who can do anything. However, I also know a God of perfection, a God who wouldn't create until everything was in His perfect order. People seem to forget that when the world was created, there was no time. That's a man-made concept. So personally, while I don't believe in the accepted theory of evolution at all, I do believe God could have taken thousands, possibly millions of years to create and perfect the earth we know. I have no problem reconciling that with my literal reading of the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection. To me, that's something that can't be explained by facts. People who say they can't believe because nothing has been "proved", goad me a bit because that's the whole point: you can't believe in Jesus or what The Bible says about Him with facts; it has to be with faith under the New Covenant (which would veer off topic, so I'll end that part here.) To me, it simply means that God is a lot more concerned with our heart towards His Son and how we see Him, as opposed to all our doctrine and rhetoric about topics that don't really matter in the long run.
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Old 06-14-2007, 09:43 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


I believe it, but you never would have surmised as much from the last 30 pages would you? A glance back through the posts finds Creation believers only referred to as "conservatives" or "Bush voters."
That tends to be the case. I'm a Believer. I go to a large non-denominational church near Detroit. I consider myself evangelical, but not fundamentalist. There is no one on earth more self-righteous than most Right-Wing Conservatives, who STILL tend to be the Religious Right. However, that self-righteousness also extends to the ultra-Left Wing too. (i.e. the ACLU) Anyway, I am as far from the Conservative platform as one can get. If I can sound like Bono here for a second, what's mentioned in The Bible the most, is clearly what's on God's mind the most. Next to personal Salvation, care for the poor/needy is mentioned the most. I don't see that happening on the agenda of most Conservatives. I see "ZOMG, Abortion, Gay Marriage, NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!" I would say I'm moderate on those 2 issues, and liberal on most others. However, with no references to abortion in and of itself in The Bible and 3 mentions of homosexuality that I can think of, it is absolutely maddening to me that the church world tries to tell me those are the 2 issues I should vote on. I will NEVER vote for a candidate who polarizes groups of people and by making laws denying them rights says they're less than human. I will NEVER vote for a candiate who doesn't make those in poverty his/her first priority (whether that actually translates into his/her doing anything once in office would remain to be seen). To me, these candidates usually tend to be branded as "Liberals" Ergo, I consider myself a "liberal" I guess you could say. I vote on what The Bible tells me to consider important. I don't vote on what the church world's narrow-minded view of a small God tells me to vote on.
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Old 06-14-2007, 10:32 AM   #445
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I believe it, but you never would have surmised as much from the last 30 pages would you? A glance back through the posts finds Creation believers only referred to as "conservatives" or "Bush voters."


the key difference that religious African-Americans -- who tend to live in more urban environments and grow up with more diversity of thought than your typical rural voter -- don't try to take over school boards and preach such nonsense in the public schools.

all of which precisely demonstrates my point.

believe whatever you want. just don't tell me that Creationism is science, and don't try to make it into science.
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:04 AM   #446
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That tends to be the case. I'm a Believer. I go to a large non-denominational church near Detroit. I consider myself evangelical, but not fundamentalist. There is no one on earth more self-righteous than most Right-Wing Conservatives, who STILL tend to be the Religious Right. However, that self-righteousness also extends to the ultra-Left Wing too. (i.e. the ACLU) Anyway, I am as far from the Conservative platform as one can get. If I can sound like Bono here for a second, what's mentioned in The Bible the most, is clearly what's on God's mind the most. Next to personal Salvation, care for the poor/needy is mentioned the most. I don't see that happening on the agenda of most Conservatives. I see "ZOMG, Abortion, Gay Marriage, NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!" I would say I'm moderate on those 2 issues, and liberal on most others. However, with no references to abortion in and of itself in The Bible and 3 mentions of homosexuality that I can think of, it is absolutely maddening to me that the church world tries to tell me those are the 2 issues I should vote on. I will NEVER vote for a candidate who polarizes groups of people and by making laws denying them rights says they're less than human. I will NEVER vote for a candiate who doesn't make those in poverty his/her first priority (whether that actually translates into his/her doing anything once in office would remain to be seen). To me, these candidates usually tend to be branded as "Liberals" Ergo, I consider myself a "liberal" I guess you could say. I vote on what The Bible tells me to consider important. I don't vote on what the church world's narrow-minded view of a small God tells me to vote on.
I agree with much of what you say, however, there are many was to clothe the naked and feed the poor beyond government redistribution of money. In fact, government is the least efficient method to render such aid because of administration, bureaucratic indifference and centralization. Not to mention politics.

Private charities are much more efficient. Personal donations more heartfelt than government extortion.

In addition, no government program can replace a job. The best poverty fighter the world has known is capitalism and economic freedom.
I could say loads more but sorta getting off topic.
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #447
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Private charities are much more efficient. Personal donations more heartfelt than government extortion.


private charities do a great job of educating children.

there are many problems that are way, way, way too big for even the best charities. Bono knows this. not even Bill Gates can cough up $30bn.

i'm all for private citizens doing good things, but i think we're fooling ourselves if we think any of the systemic problems that face our society is capable of being solved without the massive financial and logistical power of government.

we've been spending so much time since Reagan talking about how bad government is, how it doesn't work, how it should be drowned in a bathtub. and what are we seeing? a government that can't evacuate New Orleans. a government that's losing a war to Arab teenagers. Republicans keep telling us that government doesn't work, and they get elected, and prove themselves right. again and again.

but, yes, this is another topic.
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:18 AM   #448
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the key difference that religious African-Americans -- who tend to live in more urban environments and grow up with more diversity of thought than your typical rural voter -- don't try to take over school boards and preach such nonsense in the public schools.

ehhh. . . .I don't know about that. . .
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:25 AM   #449
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ehhh. . . .I don't know about that. . .


how many black people live in Kansas?

i get a bit of exposure to middle-class african-american religiosity that's in the DC suburbs -- especially Prince George's County -- and evolution isn't even remotely a topic of interest or discussion on the news. i don't see the same desire to reshape the world into a more pallatable image amongst urban-ish religious African-Americans that i do with white evangelical protestants in the south and midwest.

i do point a finger at the explicit homophobia of much of the religious African-American community, particularly when i see the damage it does to young, gay, black men.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:36 AM   #450
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I think that evolution is so amazing that only God could have done it. How's that for a compromise?
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