Creationism isn't Right

[2861U2]

You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.

I love you.

 

[Irvine511]

You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.

the push back from "God" is really a push back from the Judaeo-Christian God -- since it's only ever that God that some insist belongs in the public sphere in a country where the separation of church/state has been enormously successful, both for the church and for the state -- you never see other religions demanding that their various teachings and tenets be placed in federal buildings, be built as enormous monuments and placed outside of federal courts, or instructed in classrooms.

so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.

 

[2861U2]

the push back from "God" is really a push back from the Judaeo-Christian God -- since it's only ever that God that some insist belongs in the public sphere in a country where the separation of church/state has been enormously successful, both for the church and for the state -- you never see other religions demanding that their various teachings and tenets be placed in federal buildings, be built as enormous monuments and placed outside of federal courts, or instructed in classrooms.

so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.

I dont buy that. I dont want a Bible class in every school in America, but I do want children to be able to speak the word "God." I want them to say the Pledge every morning (which of course isnt even about God, but country). I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

Winter break? Winter break!!??

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not offended if somebody believes in evolution. If they want to teach evolution in classrooms, fine. People like me will just shrug it off because we have a different belief of what happened. I thought the point of this thread was to explain why I believe in creationism, which I did, not to bash those who believe in evolution, or vice-versa.

are there are other parts of science you don't believe in either because you don't want to?

 

[Irvine511]

I dont buy that. I dont want a Bible class in every school in America, but I do want children to be able to speak the word "God." I want them to say the Pledge every morning (which of course isnt even about God, but country). I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

Winter break? Winter break!!??

i'm so sorry you're so oppressed.

truly, the failure of the culture to fully affirm, embrace, and nurture your own personal belief system is a form of oppression and you must suffer immeasurable psychological damage during December when people say "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

how awful. i don't know how you keep it together.

poor thing.

 

[2861U2]

are there are other parts of science you don't believe in either because you don't want to?

No, I find science very interesting. I have problems when it butts heads with my faith. If my science teacher said out of the blue one day. "It's impossible for a man to live in a fish," I would believe him, except for the one time when I believe it really did happen.

 

[randhail]

As someone said, yes, there are things in the Bible that seem far-fetched to have really happened (Jonah in the fish, Moses parting the sea, not to mention all the miracles of Jesus), but I think those things, the large displays of God's power really did occur, and that includes creating the universe. I also agree that parts of the Bible are to be taked literally and parts metaphorically. But when the Bible says, for example, that there were 3 times when God spoke to Jesus (literally spoke, audibly, and the people around Jesus heard Him too), I cant help but believe that that really happened. It's too awesome to not want to believe.

If you agree that parts of the bible are metaphorical, then why is creation not one of them? What makes something worthy of being literal and something else metaphorical?

 

[Irvine511]

No, I find science very interesting. I have problems when it butts heads with my faith. If my science teacher said out of the blue one day. "It's impossible for a man to live in a fish," I would believe him, except for the one time when I believe it really did happen.

so you really can't get upset when i describe some of your beliefs as willfull ignorance.

because that's what it is.

you're saying, "i believe it all up to this point where i don't believe it." and that's fine. you're perfectly free to believe whatever you want. and i'm free to call you willfully ignorant. and i'm also free to make sure that your own completely subjective belief system isn't taught in public schools to my children.

 

[anitram]

so we're not talking about "God" here.

we're talking about Christianity.

Exactly.

These people so offended about God not being in our schools - how often do you hear them advocating that we celebrate Hanukkah or Diwali? Oh, that's right, never. It's just a guise for Christianity.

 

[2861U2]

so you really can't get upset when i describe some of your beliefs as willfull ignorance.

and I'm free to call those who don't believe in God ignorant as well.

 

[Irvine511]

and I'm free to call those who don't believe in God ignorant as well.

you absolutely are.

the difference, to my mind, is that i've got facts to back me up. you have faith. at least with facts we have a common language -- hence, the need for secularization of the schools, of science, of government. we cannot have a meaningful conversation about "God" in a public sense, but we can have a meaningful conversation about science, law, medicine, etc. why? because such things can be measured, quantified, etc.

what people don't understand, sometimes, is that secularization helps the religious as much as it helps the nonreligious. how would you like a state religion? how would you feel when, in 100 years and the majority of Christians in this country are Catholic, if your children had to pray to the blessed mother and had a picture of the Pope up in the classroom?

secularism enables pluraism. secularism must be guarded and defended because there are people out there who seem to need to have their faith affirmed in a very public way, yet never for a moment wonder how a Jew feels in December, and never push it further to realize that, under different circumstance, they could be that Jew in December. or that Christian in Iran.

one of reasons why religion is so successful in the US -- and American Christians are the most powerful, protected, influential group of believers in history, no matter the country or religion -- is because we've kept the state from encroaching on religion and reshaping religion so that it better reflects the goals of the state.

and vice versa.

 

[anitram]

2861U2, do you believe that people who have children with congenital defects are guilty of sinning?

Apparently there was less sin back then, and therefore fewer mutations in their DNA. Evidently sin, not two copies of the same recessive trait, gives rise to congenital birth defects.

I really want to know if the Christians down the street whose son had a congenital heart defect are responsible for his suffering.

 

[martha]

You have to at least be equitable in this. Maybe conservatives wouldn't have had to try (and in some cases succeed) to get this into the cirriculum if liberals hadn't tried (and in most cases succeeded) to eridicate God from classrooms, holidays, goverment offices, etc.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

It's a bitch, ain't it.

 

[martha]

I want to have "Christmas break" not "Holiday/Winter break"

But I want a Hannukah Break.

 

[2861U2]

i'm so sorry you're so oppressed.

truly, the failure of the culture to fully affirm, embrace, and nurture your own personal belief system is a form of oppression and you must suffer immeasurable psychological damage during December when people say "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

how awful. i don't know how you keep it together.

poor thing.

Christmas of 2005, my and my family did most of our Christmas shopping at Best Buy because they said "Merry Christmas." Walmart, however did not. Christmas of 2006, they switched for some reason. Best Buy did not say "Christmas," Walmart did, and we did most of our shopping there. Call us whatever name you want for doing that, but do not underestimate the number of people in the country who pay attention to things like that.


oh, and anitram, I did not say that quote about the gene defects. But I'll answer with a no. I dont believe that at all. Keep in mind that we are all sinners, but I dont believe our sin causes our children to be sick.

 

[Irvine511]

Christmas of 2005, my and my family did most of our Christmas shopping at Best Buy because they said "Merry Christmas." Walmart, however did not. Christmas of 2006, they switched for some reason. Best Buy did not say "Christmas," Walmart did, and we did most of our shopping there. Call us whatever name you want for doing that, but do not underestimate the number of people in the country who pay attention to things like that.

and i want you to wish me a happy Hannukkah during those seven days in December. if you don't, then i'm going to declare that there's a "War on Hannukkah."

and, trust me, i am well aware of people to whom such things are important. my boyfriend's family is very Baptist, very Southern, very church-centered, and i know and understand where this impulse is coming from.

but they're still wrong. and it comes from intolerance and insecurity. there's a fear of difference, of competing ideas, of things not being the way you remember they were.

and all i can say is get used to it. it's just going to get less white and less christian.

 

[Snowlock]

It's a bitch, ain't it.

That's just a modern misinterpretation to fit your lack of beliefs. In the historical perspective of the bill of rights it was written to prohibit a state religion as the one that England had (when henry the VIII wanted a divorce and the Church refused to grant it, he started his own religion and forced his subjects to convert to it as well.

At the declaration of independence, it was opened with a prayer. In God We trust is on our currency and presidential and congressional oaths are taken before God. Nowhere in the formation of our country was there any intent to omit God as you and people like you see it now.

Historical fact is a bitch; ain't it.

In fact by banning God you are infact banning religion which is EXACTLY what the forefathers DIDN'T want! They wanted a country where everyone was free to practice their beliefs openly regardless of what they were.

What has happened is the opposite where no one is free to practice their beliefs openly; and we have a recognized state religion of Atheism.

 

[redhotswami]

Christmas of 2005, my and my family did most of our Christmas shopping at Best Buy because they said "Merry Christmas." Walmart, however did not. Christmas of 2006, they switched for some reason. Best Buy did not say "Christmas," Walmart did, and we did most of our shopping there. Call us whatever name you want for doing that, but do not underestimate the number of people in the country who pay attention to things like that.

all it is is a ploy to get your money, trust me they could care less. people in the stores say "merry christmas" the day after thanksgiving. they offer christmas well wishes during the season of advent. but what happens during the ACTUAL christmas season? decorations are taken down, the music stops playing, and people are back to their usual routine. for the stores, the celebration is over. ehtier they have no idea what the christmas celebration is really about, or they just don't care and are trying to get christians to buy their products.

and i'm REALLY surprised that your christian values tells you to shop at walmart of all places. what's more important, just saying the phrase? that carries over all the injustices walmart is responsible for?

deeds not words.

 

[INDY500]

and all i can say is get used to it. it's just going to get less white and less christian.

Will there still be baseball and apple pie?

Let's just hope the transition from White Christian to ? goes better here than in Europe.

 

[Snowlock]

but they're still wrong. and it comes from intolerance and insecurity. there's a fear of difference, of competing ideas, of things not being the way you remember they were.

and all i can say is get used to it. it's just going to get less white and less christian.

A fear of difference and competing ideas... And the title of this thread was what again?

Get used to it? That sounds tolerant.

What exactly are you afraid of anyway?

 

[redhotswami]

I'm not offended if somebody believes in evolution. If they want to teach evolution in classrooms, fine. People like me will just shrug it off because we have a different belief of what happened. I thought the point of this thread was to explain why I believe in creationism, which I did, not to bash those who believe in evolution, or vice-versa.

As someone said, yes, there are things in the Bible that seem far-fetched to have really happened (Jonah in the fish, Moses parting the sea, not to mention all the miracles of Jesus), but I think those things, the large displays of God's power really did occur, and that includes creating the universe. I also agree that parts of the Bible are to be taked literally and parts metaphorically. But when the Bible says, for example, that there were 3 times when God spoke to Jesus (literally spoke, audibly, and the people around Jesus heard Him too), I cant help but believe that that really happened. It's too awesome to not want to believe.

but then how do you know that creationism is not meant to be taken literally?

 

[Irvine511]

That's just a modern misinterpretation to fit your lack of beliefs. In the historical perspective of the bill of rights it was written to prohibit a state religion as the one that England had (when henry the VIII wanted a divorce and the Church refused to grant it, he started his own religion and forced his subjects to convert to it as well.

At the declaration of independence, it was opened with a prayer. In God We trust is on our currency and presidential and congressional oaths are taken before God. Nowhere in the formation of our country was there any intent to omit God as you and people like you see it now.

Historical fact is a bitch; ain't it.

and i'd argue that's a reinterpretation to fit your beliefs.

please tell me how we use the Declaration of Independence to govern. because we don't. it's a historical document, yes, but it is not a document used by the government in the business of governing.

and it was written by Jefferson, who's about as clear on this issue as anyone.

and some things, like The Pledge, had God inserted in recent times in order to further a political agenda -- to distinguish us from the "godless" Communists. and the "... in God we Trust" came about during the Civil War, and wasn't on paper money until the 1957 as, again, a part of anti-Communist politics.

but, the historical examples you've given prove absolutely nothing. if people want to pray, they're free to, at school, in the workplace, whatever they want. the historical impetus behind the bill of rights was, yes, to prevent a theocracy like you had in europe at the time -- and notice how it's the former theocracies that are now the most secular -- but it doesn't just say "a" religion, as some would like to state, but "religion" itself. nowhere in the oft cited quotes from Jefferson or Madison do they say they just don't want a specific religion, they say "religion" -- an all-inclusive, sweeping term. and most nations, even where this separation is practiced, don't have it specifically written into their constitutions as the US does.

i think it's inappropriate to have "... in God we trust" on the currency. why not "... in Allah we trust" or "... in Zeus we trust."

but i'm not all that upset about it. maybe i should be, but i'm not.

 

[Irvine511]

A fear of difference and competing ideas... And the title of this thread was what again?

Get used to it? That sounds tolerant.

What exactly are you afraid of anyway?

i'm afraid of superstition passing as science. i'm afraid of the continual degradation of the school system so that some people aren't offended/threatened.

you're making the mistake that, somehow, evolution and creationism are on equal grounds, that "the jury is still out" as Bush has said.

it's not. to even compare the two is to give creationism/intelligent design credibility it doesn't deserve. there is no equivocation between the two. one is science, the other theology.

as i've said, and we all keep saying, people can believe whatever they want.

you just can't teach that shit to my kids in my publically funded schools with my taxpayer money.

 

[Irvine511]

Let's just hope the transition from White Christian to ? goes better here than in Europe.

so long as our laws remain rigorously secular, yes, it will go better.

secularism makes room for everybody.

 

[2861U2]

i'm afraid of superstition passing as science. i'm afraid of the continual degradation of the school system so that some people aren't offended/threatened.

you're making the mistake that, somehow, evolution and creationism are on equal grounds, that "the jury is still out" as Bush has said.

it's not. to even compare the two is to give creationism/intelligent design credibility it doesn't deserve. there is no equivocation between the two. one is science, the other theology.

as i've said, and we all keep saying, people can believe whatever they want.

you just can't teach that shit to my kids in my publically funded schools with my taxpayer money.

I would like it if you didnt call a religion "shit." That is very, very dissrepectful. If you're not a Christian, ok, but shame on you for saying that.

I hope you and your children find God someday.

 

[Snowlock]

i'm afraid of superstition passing as science. i'm afraid of the continual degradation of the school system so that some people aren't offended/threatened.

you're making the mistake that, somehow, evolution and creationism are on equal grounds, that "the jury is still out" as Bush has said.

it's not. to even compare the two is to give creationism/intelligent design credibility it doesn't deserve. there is no equivocation between the two. one is science, the other theology.

as i've said, and we all keep saying, people can believe whatever they want.

you just can't teach that shit to my kids in my publically funded schools with my taxpayer money.

What you say is superstition others say is science and vice versa. Science thought the world was flat at one point. A pulsar violates nearly every physical law we have; yet it exists. The Missing Link has never been found, the death of the dinosaurs have never been explained I could go on and on about scientific theory that is being taught as scientific fact; especially evolution.

So if we're talking about competing theories, and you wish to BAN one of them, that's the definition of intolerance and you're at minimum just as guilty as those nasty evil conservatives of it.

"that shit" yeah, you being the essence of tolerance, I can see why you would be so worried about pointing out intolerance in others.

 

[BEAL]

I would like it if you didnt call a religion "shit." That is very, very dissrepectful. If you're not a Christian, ok, but shame on you for saying that.

I hope you and your children find God someday.

Would it count if Irvine was Muslim and found Allah, or does it have to be the christian GOD?

These talks just go around and around and around.

I personally feel if there is a GOD that there would be more than just FAITH to go by. Why does it have to be so hard to believe (and I know someone will say it's not hard, just have faith and read the good book). Why can't there be something else?

We have the means (facts) to prove crimes by linking DNA, have measures in place to tell us how old bones, or artifacts are. Yet we have nothing on this earth to tell us there was a christian GOD walking among us.

Other than a book that was written decades after GOD walked the Earth. And has been rewritten many times due to new meanings and/or problems with Interpretation

 

[martha]

They wanted a country where everyone was free to practice their beliefs openly regardless of what they were.

So do I!! I just don't want to have your version of religion shoved down my throat in the name of the state.

What has happened is the opposite where no one is free to practice their beliefs openly; and we have a recognized state religion of Atheism.

So it would be ok with you if I require my students to say Jai Baba everytime something good happens? Can I require them to say that as a prayer when an ambulance goes by? Can I take some time during Social Studies to teach them the Master's Prayer and require them to say it after the Pledge? Can we have a party in February to mark Baba's birthday? Can I require them to observe a minute of silence, timed with India, at Amartithi in January?

Or is it just your version of God we're allowed to have in schools?

 

[martha]

Historical fact is a bitch; ain't it.

You know what's a real bitch? Tersely worded amendments that leave Jesus out of them.

 

[Irvine511]

I would like it if you didnt call a religion "shit." That is very, very dissrepectful. If you're not a Christian, ok, but shame on you for saying that.

I hope you and your children find God someday.

i didn't say religion was shit.

i said Creationism, in the context of a science class, was "shit."

and it is. "shit" science.

and you're not going to get anywhere getting all sanctimonious on me.

no children yet, but if/when my eventual partner and i choose to adopt, religion just might be a part of his/her upbringing.

but inclusive, liberal, socially-aware religion that is more concerned with Darfur than with just who has and who hasn't said "Merry Christmas" to me.