Creationism isn't Right - Page 26 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-09-2007, 09:39 PM   #376
War Child
 
najeena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: an island paradise
Posts: 995
Local Time: 09:07 AM
Why would God create fossils and other natural phemomena that point exclusively to evolution just to test those who deign to doubt? Aren't there more important things to deal with?
__________________

__________________
najeena is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 09:43 PM   #377
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,249
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Answer to me, what and why you choose to view some as a metaphor and some as literal? What's your measuring stick? You have to have one right, I mean it's not just because someone told you right?
I don't have a solid answer for you. It's a matter of opinion and it derives from my relationship with God. One day I will read a story and interpret it as literally happening, and the next day I will read it and interpret it as a symbolic story. And I dont think that back-and-forth is a bad thing. I think that is what is so great about the Bible. I dont know if you are a Christian or not (forgive me, in all this discussion I have lost track), but if you are, I would think you would understand. If you arent, then sorry, this answer probably isnt making sense to you.

Going back to your "Jesus as a metaphor" proposition: If you are a Christian and want to take the entire Bible as a metaphor, fine. However, I cannot fathom a Christian believing that the life of Jesus Christ was a metaphor. He is the core figure of Christianity and his life (telling of salvation, and dying and being born again) is the core theme of Christianity. For someone to say they are a Christian, yet refuse to believe that such a personification of salvation lived is hard to imagine. The whole life of Jesus is the reason said person would call themself a Christian, and I wouldnt think they would doubt He lived. In other words, I believe you can take as symbol or metaphor everything in the Bible if you please, except the story of Jesus, in whose life and lessons is the reason you consider yourself a Christian.
__________________

__________________
2861U2 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 09:44 PM   #378
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,249
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
Why would God create fossils and other natural phemomena that point exclusively to evolution just to test those who deign to doubt? Aren't there more important things to deal with?
another "why would God" question, which neither I nor anyone else can answer. I am not God and I do not understand what he does or why.
__________________
2861U2 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 09:47 PM   #379
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
Why would God create fossils and other natural phemomena that point exclusively to evolution just to test those who deign to doubt? Aren't there more important things to deal with?
Fossils don't point exclusively to evolution, they could just have been put there yesterday but fabricated so perfectly to seem as if they were old. If somebody produced evidence for this hypothesis that was more convincing than geochronoloical and palaeontological evidence then it would be quite the shift in paradigm.

As far as criticism of the gaps in the record go that is a function of preservation as well as the tempo and mode of evolution (to borrow from Simpson). Whats interesting is that we find specimens that could adequately be labelled missing links but they are just ignored so that the statement of no missing links can continue.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 09:57 PM   #380
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


I don't have a solid answer for you. It's a matter of opinion and it derives from my relationship with God. One day I will read a story and interpret it as literally happening, and the next day I will read it and interpret it as a symbolic story. And I dont think that back-and-forth is a bad thing. I think that is what is so great about the Bible. I dont know if you are a Christian or not (forgive me, in all this discussion I have lost track), but if you are, I would think you would understand. If you arent, then sorry, this answer probably isnt making sense to you.

Going back to your "Jesus as a metaphor" proposition: If you are a Christian and want to take the entire Bible as a metaphor, fine. However, I cannot fathom a Christian believing that the life of Jesus Christ was a metaphor. He is the core figure of Christianity and his life (telling of salvation, and dying and being born again) is the core theme of Christianity. For someone to say they are a Christian, yet refuse to believe that such a personification of salvation lived is hard to imagine. The whole life of Jesus is the reason said person would call themself a Christian, and I wouldnt think they would doubt He lived. In other words, I believe you can take as symbol or metaphor everything in the Bible if you please, except the story of Jesus, in whose life and lessons is the reason you consider yourself a Christian.
Well I think that's a very weak relationship if you can take everything with a grain of salt, which is pretty much in essense what you are saying by, "back and forth thing".

I guess I would think most people would choose what they take as metaphor and what they don't by logic, historical evidence, science, etc...

But I guess not, that baffles me. It also baffles me that you ignore facts in order to believe a metaphor. Yet you admit you go back and forth on everything else. Yet the most obvious metaphor and you choose to take it literally.

Seems like a very dangerous way to live.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 09:58 PM   #381
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


another "why would God" question, which neither I nor anyone else can answer. I am not God and I do not understand what he does or why.
That was a rhetorical question pointing out your obvious ignoring of facts.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:06 PM   #382
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,249
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well I think that's a very weak relationship if you can take everything with a grain of salt, which is pretty much in essense what you are saying by, "back and forth thing".

I guess I would think most people would choose what they take as metaphor and what they don't by logic, historical evidence, science, etc...

But I guess not, that baffles me. It also baffles me that you ignore facts in order to believe a metaphor. Yet you admit you go back and forth on everything else. Yet the most obvious metaphor and you choose to take it literally.

Seems like a very dangerous way to live.
"Seems like a very dangerous way to live?" Get off your high horse, sir. You are becoming laughable.

As I have said (and as any pastor will tell you) logic and science play no role in Christianity. You underestimate God and overestimate science. I get the feeling that you believe God (if you believe in God) is bound by the laws of science and logic, and am disappointed if you think that.

I'm not sure why you think I take everything with a grain of salt. And also, you are in no place to call my relationship with God "weak." It is absolutely the opposite. If I were you, I would stop and examine my own relationship with Him before calling others' "weak"
__________________
2861U2 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:17 PM   #383
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


"Seems like a very dangerous way to live?" Get off your high horse, sir. You are becoming laughable.
I'm becoming laughable, you may not have noticed but many in here have been laughing at you, even those who are on your side.

No high horse, I'm riding a dragon. His name is Puff and he's magic.


Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

As I have said (and as any pastor will tell you) logic and science play no role in Christianity. You underestimate God and overestimate science. I get the feeling that you believe God (if you believe in God) is bound by the laws of science and logic, and am disappointed if you think that.
False. My grandfather was a minister and he would scoff at the idea that logic and science don't play a role. Most ministers that I know personally would laugh at that. Since "God was the one who created the laws of logic and science", as my grandfather would say...
That doesn't mean God is bound to those laws, just that God would use those laws.

Now Christians may be divided on how the world was created, but most I know are usually divided on Evolution vs Intelligent design and all the finer points in between.


Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

I'm not sure why you think I take everything with a grain of salt. And also, you are in no place to call my relationship with God "weak." It is absolutely the opposite. If I were you, I would stop and examine my own relationship with Him before calling others' "weak"
I didn't say your relationship with God is weak your relationship with understanding the Bible is weak. Two different things.


But you still haven't answered the question. Why if so many other things can go back and forth, does the 6 day thing remain fact with you?

The whale thing, I can understand going back and forth, but why does the biggest metaphor of them all remain fact with you?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:26 PM   #384
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
Why would God create fossils and other natural phemomena that point exclusively to evolution just to test those who deign to doubt? Aren't there more important things to deal with?
I agree with you about the "Why would God". Which is why I believe the universe is billions of years old. "Why would God put craters on distant moons that, in space, couldn't have eroded to the extent that they have in only thousands of years" for instance.

However, the fossil record does not show slow advancing evolution from one species to another higher one.

The fossil record shows species appearing fully formed -- varying around a mean -- and then disappearing.

Darwinism is simply a creation story without a God.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:29 PM   #385
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,249
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

your relationship with understanding the Bible is weak.
I must disagree.

Quote:
But you still haven't answered the question. Why if so many other things can go back and forth, does the 6 day thing remain fact with you? why does the biggest metaphor of them all remain fact with you?
I believe God created the universe in 6 days because, like I said, I take joy in believing that. It is such an awesome display of His power and love and his plan which is just beginning to unfold. He could have created that same universe in a split-second if He wanted, and so I dont know why he picked the time period He did. It is not fact with me. Perhaps the 6 days represent 6000 years. I dont know. I wasnt there. I cannot give you an answer rooted in science and logic. All I can give you is an answer rooted in faith.

I would like to see scientific studies proving God wrong, proving beyond a doubt that God did not create the universe the way He said He did.
__________________
2861U2 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:30 PM   #386
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 07:07 PM
Quote:
The fossil record shows species appearing fully formed -- varying around a mean -- and then disappearing
Correct, except for marine pelagic organisms like forams and rads which do show graduated change because of the way they are preserved. But the question of speciation and the fossil record is reconciled by the discoveries in modern biology of allopatric speciation mechanisms where peripheral small populations are able to change rapidly unlike large stable ones then overtaking the geographical extent of the original one thus providing a new species in their place as well as the discoveries in epigenetics which reveal the plasticity in organism development from which macroevolutionary changes emerge. The rate and resolution of fossil preservation is a good part of why we don't see finely graduated chains in organisms and instead find species suddenly appearing.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:35 PM   #387
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


so I dont know why he picked the time period He did. It is not fact with me. Perhaps the 6 days represent 6000 years. I dont know. I wasnt there. I cannot give you an answer rooted in science and logic. All I can give you is an answer rooted in faith.
Flip-flopper. So now it might be a metaphor?

You're right, you weren't there, no one was, so how did the story come about?

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

I would like to see scientific studies proving God wrong, proving beyond a doubt that God did not create the universe the way He said He did.
Wow you really don't understand science, science will never disprove God. But it does prove without doubt that it wasn't created in 6 days.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:37 PM   #388
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
B) I am not "turning off my brain." As I have stated many times before (please read this very carefully and very slowly), I WRESTLE WITH MANY ISSUES AND HAVE MANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING MY FAITH. I am constantly learning, constantly questioning and constantly growing. If you think Christianity works by people "turning off their brain," you are very, very incorrect.

C) I dont know where you got that God wrote the Bible. He spoke to Adam and others, and the book of Genesis was compiled by Moses from what God said. God did not write the Bible. Again, you are mistaken.
Please, stop generalizing yourself as a Christian. He said that you, specifically, are turning off your brain, not that Christians turn off their brains.

And you've said that you take the Bible as God's word, so you must think he wrote the Bible.

ETA: And oh yes, you did say this:

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
Also, if I was asked to provide proof of a God or support my belief in God using only common sense and logic, I would fail miserably.
Isn't that "turning off your brain?"
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:38 PM   #389
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Don't you know 2861U2 speaks for all Christians? I thought everyone got that memo...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-09-2007, 10:39 PM   #390
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Don't you know 2861U2 speaks for all Christians? I thought everyone got that memo...
Maybe he thought my email address was phillyfan36 instead of 26.
__________________

__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com