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Old 06-09-2007, 03:01 PM   #346
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Originally posted by Ormus
Nations like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and the Canadian province of Québec, in the mid-20th century, were heavily "Christian" states, much like many fundamentalist Christians today wish they could have here in the United States. Nevertheless, these states were often repressive to dissenting ideas, and decades later, the people of these countries generally want little to do with Christianity today. Québec, in particular, is known for many beautiful churches--which few attend today.

Quebec is a very good example. In the beginning, the general populace responded well to Duplessis' ideas and heavy-handed Catholicism. Eventually, though as Catholicism began to invade more and more of the public sphere things began to change. Courts routinely ruled against him for unconstitutional behaviour. A lot of our core constitutional cases come from this era, in fact. Particularly the discrimination against Jehovah's Witnesses and the state interfering in religious minority groups which did not comply with stringent Catholic views. The end result was a wholesale rejection of Catholicism as a religious concept (although it survives well culturally).

But great example of how when you try to infuse religion into politics, business and schools and when you try to shove religion down people's throats, eventually the gag reflex kicks in. And in the long run, the society swings to the other side of the pendulum and embraces secularism far more than they likely would have had the religious right not insisted on their version of religiosity.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:08 PM   #347
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Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).
Simple: A lack of fossil evidence. Such creatures would have had to have been a larger species with a previously sustainable population, not just one-off monster creatures.

As I just explained, most of these "monsters" originated from these cultures encountering animal species that we currently take for granted today, and, out of fear, exaggerating their features and traits into something frightening, often corresponding to ancient cultural mythology.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:13 PM   #348
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Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).
Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:27 PM   #349
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?
A belief in Jesus Christ and an almighty God means that you cannot close any doors or take any options or possibilities off of the table. Let's just pretend that the Bible talks about a 13-legged, 5-eyed, multi-colored polka-dotted flying unicorn. And let's imagine that there was only one of him (not an entire species). That creature could very well be a metaphor, but he also could have really existed. Belief in an all-powerful God, to me, means realizing that He can do or create absolutely anything. For a Christian to say "oh, that creature absolutely did not exist" is blindness on their part, and unless they were there, they cannot know that God could not or did not create such a being simply because we dont have a fossil of it.

To answer your Genesis question, no, the people who wrote Genesis were of course not there to witness the universe's construction. However, accounts told directly by God directly to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob and others, and finally compiled by Moses after he was spoken to on Mount Sinai make me believe what Genesis tells me.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:27 PM   #350
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Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).


So now you are suddenly looking for certainty?
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:30 PM   #351
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:30 PM   #352
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?
God was there to inspire them

just like he was there at the founding of America
when Jefferson wrote
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator"
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:59 PM   #353
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Originally posted by 2861U2


A belief in Jesus Christ and an almighty God means that you cannot close any doors or take any options or possibilities off of the table. Let's just pretend that the Bible talks about a 13-legged, 5-eyed, multi-colored polka-dotted flying unicorn. And let's imagine that there was only one of him (not an entire species). That creature could very well be a metaphor, but he also could have really existed. Belief in an all-powerful God, to me, means realizing that He can do or create absolutely anything. For a Christian to say "oh, that creature absolutely did not exist" is blindness on their part, and unless they were there, they cannot know that God could not or did not create such a being simply because we dont have a fossil of it.

Listen to yourself...

If God is the creator of this universe, what would be the logic of designing such a creature? So far God has always used logic and the laws of science which he created, why would he stray from those just this once?

And this "unless you were there" crap is worthless...

Why would God not want you to know the past? Just think a little...
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:07 PM   #354
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So far God has always used logic and the laws of science which he created, why would he stray from those just this once?
I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

It sounds like you're asking me to get inside the mind of God and figure out why He does things or why He would do certain things. Sorry, but I can't do that.

A few posts ago you mentioned the phrase "common sense." I couldnt help but chuckle when I read that. "Common sense" plays no role in the concept of creationism or in Christianity. "Common sense" does not apply to belief in an all-knowing, all-powerful awesome God, who knows no bounds or limits and who cannot be explained by using common sense.

Edited to say: Also, if I was asked to provide proof of a God or support my belief in God using only common sense and logic, I would fail miserably. I feel they play no role in Christianity.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:09 PM   #355
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Originally posted by Ormus
[B]

Our Founding Fathers were Enlightenment-era deists, whose modern equivalent would be Unitarians or agnostics.
Hold on. Unitarians yes, but agnostics, no way. There is simply no way, no way, you can read the words or look at the symbols of our country during it's infancy and think that the founding fathers held agnostic views towards God.
Deists, it's true, did not believed in a revealed religion, a personal God, or that Jesus was the Son of God; and thus were not Christians per se. But Deism most certainly held that there was a single creator God, a Moral Law attributable to Him, and that He worked in the world through providence. Most also held the view that religion was necessary to produce virtue in it's citizens. And they were extremely biblically literate.
Agnostic, no way.


In addition, not all founders were Deists. There were Episcopalians, Quakers, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists and some others. While the founders tended to be more liberal the population of the country was preponderantly orthodox or evangelical.

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It has to be understood that Americans were very cold to religion during the post-revolutionary world
Really, this is pre-revolution but why was Pennsylvania formed? Why is it called Maryland (hint: Mary's land.) Americans were not cold to religion during the time of the revolution.

True, America is not a Christian nation, except in this sense -- it has been from the beginning and remains to be overwhelmingly populated by Christians. In addition, The Republic is not in itself a church -- but it is filled with them.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #356
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I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

It sounds like you're asking me to get inside the mind of God and figure out why He does things or why He would do certain things. Sorry, but I can't do that.
It doesn't suprise me...

That's not what I'm saying I'm telling you everything has it's purpose, what the hell would a one off fire breathing dragon play in this world? Just think, don't be lazy...

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


A few posts ago you mentioned the phrase "common sense." I couldnt help but chuckle when I read that. "Common sense" plays no role in the concept of creationism or in Christianity. "Common sense" does not apply to belief in an all-knowing, all-powerful awesome God, who knows no bounds or limits and who cannot be explained by using common sense.

Edited to say: Also, if I was asked to provide proof of a God or support my belief in God using only common sense and logic, I would fail miserably. I feel they play no role in Christianity.
You've basically set yourself up for not ever having to think on your own. God is disappointed.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:23 PM   #357
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It doesn't suprise me...

That's not what I'm saying I'm telling you everything has it's purpose, what the hell would a one off fire breathing dragon play in this world? Just think, don't be lazy...
No, that is exactly what you're asking me to do. You want me to get inside God's head and figure out why He would ever put such a creature on this earth, and I cannot do that, sir. I do not have all the answers and I do not yet know why God does some of the things he does.

And your notion that I do not think for myself is unfortunate. I do think for myself, but I'm a Christian and I believe what God says to me first and foremost. Apparently you missed my posts where I have stated that I wrestle very much with issues and that I have not determined which Bible passages I see as literal and which as metaphorical.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:33 PM   #358
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No, that is exactly what you're asking me to do. You want me to get inside God's head and figure out why He would ever put such a creature on this earth, and I cannot do that, sir. I do not have all the answers and I do not yet know why God does some of the things he does.

Just look around you, everything has a purpose...

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I believe what God says to me first and foremost.
God talks to you? Wow you're like Pat Robertson... Has he told you who's going to win the NBA playoffs?
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:40 PM   #359
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Just look around you, everything has a purpose...
correct, but what that purpose is I do not yet know.



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God talks to you?
Yes, he sure does. He talks to me when I am praying to Him every night laying in bed. He talks to me through His Word in the Bible. He talks to me through my interactions with my friends and family, and them with me. God is constantly talking to me and He is constantly talking to you too. If we will only listen for Him and drown out the world we will hear Him. I highly recommend it.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:46 PM   #360
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I have no idea what you're talking about. The issue of dragons or dinosaurs in the Bible was labeled as "shit" and I was addressing it and backing it up with Bible verses. I am not a religious scholar, and do not spend hours studying the Bible each day. I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.


for the last time: Creationism, as science, is shit.
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