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Old 06-09-2007, 07:24 AM   #331
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Too tired to read it all, but weighing in with, I don't care if people believe in creationism, it would be nice to think this god thing did all this stuff and made the earth - i mean we're all searching for meaning in our lives, and where we've come from, where we're going etc so i understand peoples complete acceptance of the bible and all that stuff. I just think they need to have the stuffs to stand up and say - yes its all pretty stupid and far fetched, but i believe it so nyah, and have a bit of a laugh rather then getting offended. I mean, if someone says they heard a voice in their head, or a burning bush talked to them, they'd be locked up for being crazy, and im sure the "believers" would be in the forefront of that, so why does it not work the other way?
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:45 AM   #332
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Originally posted by Smallville


although you aren't doing us any favors with your dragon shit,
Folks, if you dont believe it, dont believe it. As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible. I'll look it up for you:

"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox." -Job 40:15

"It was you who crushed the heads of Levaithan (a Biblical sea monster)" -Psalm 74:14

"You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent." -Psalm 91:13

"He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon." -Rev. 13:11

I could give more examples.
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:13 AM   #333
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Originally posted by Smallville


It is, although you aren't doing us any favors with your dragon shit, but why is it so hard for some to belive that an all powerful being can create outside of the laws of science?


wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:16 AM   #334
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Originally posted by 2861U2

As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible.



and ... really, what is anyone expected to do with a post that's predicated by this disclaimer?
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:30 AM   #335
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Now that I think about it, I haven't seen the Raymond Burr Godzilla in quite a while. What a shame.

So the version released now does not have Raymond Burr in it, or it's just cut differently?


My old avatar!

The original Godzilla is also the most blatant example of changing the movie for U.S. tastes. Not only was narrative footage with an American actor (Raymond Burr) shot and inserted into the film at the cost of 30 minutes of other footage but the whole tone of the movie was changed.
The American version plays like most 50's Sci-fi with a big monster loose in the country and how are we gonna kill it.
The 1954 Japanese version Gojira (yes they even changed his name) is nothing less then a sobering alllegory to the still fresh horrors of atomic warfare with an undertone of blaming "irresponsible science." It is suspenseful, much more frightening and even causes one to give pause and think about the awful scars that remain from war long after the shooting has stopped.

The series became more of a commercial product aimed at kids later on (and that's OK because they were fun and stirred the imagination) but the original Japanese film is a masterpiece IMO and should be seen.
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:35 AM   #336
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Originally posted by Irvine511




wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.
Haven't you got anything constructive to say...about Japanese men in rubber monster costumes.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:13 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.
I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like that. You need to calm down.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:26 PM   #338
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Originally posted by Irvine511





and ... really, what is anyone expected to do with a post that's predicated by this disclaimer?
I have no idea what you're talking about. The issue of dragons or dinosaurs in the Bible was labeled as "shit" and I was addressing it and backing it up with Bible verses. I am not a religious scholar, and do not spend hours studying the Bible each day. I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:41 PM   #339
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Originally posted by 2861U2
I'm losing track of the idea of this thread. People who believe in creationism said why, and people who believe in evolution stated why. The latter crowd seems intent on getting the former crowd to prove creationism, which neither I nor anyone else can do. What do you want me to say? Can creationism be proven? No, of course not. Is there more scientific evidence reinforcing evolution as opposed to creationism? Yes, there sure is. I really dont get what you all want. This is turning into an assault on Christianity.
I love how you essentially equated Christianity to believeing in creationism. You said there are two crowds, one who believe in creationism, one who believe in evolution, then said the latter is assaulting Christianity.

Sorry if me being Christian and being a bit skeptical about your beliefs is screwing that up.

I'm more opposed to the Christians (not all, but those who do) who use the Bible as a way to discriminate against groups of people (i.e.: homosexuals), then anything, so I'm passing on this evolution-creationism debate for the most part. What you believe in that case isn't hurting anyone like discrimination is.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:02 PM   #340
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I'm honestly surprised that this thread is still open today. While I spied on it at work (where posting here, I bet, would probably get me fired in the long run), I found myself interested in commenting on a few things here.

First off, I don't think that we're all operating on the same set of terminology. "Creationism" can mean "young-Earth creationism," where the Earth was created over a literal seven, 24-hour days and the universe is approximately 6,000 years old. The Creation Museum, apparently, prescribes to an extremist form of this theology. This is the kind of creationism that people who are opposed to it automatically start visualizing in their heads, because it is the most unscientific and disproven of them of all.

Then there's some who use the term "creationism" to mean "intelligent design," which is a fundamentalist Christian-constructed theology that mixes a semblance of science with a rather haphazard and subjective appliance of religion to create something that honestly resembles nothing of either.

This theology exploits the general public's lack of deeper science education, because, as Irvine511 pointed out yesterday, there is a huge difference between the vernacular definition of "theory," which is essentially conjecture, and the scientific definition of "theory," which is the end result of years of study and peer-reviewed documentation. Gravity is technically defined under a scientific "theory," not a "law," and the Theory of Gravity has been heavily amended over the years, because of advances in scientific understanding and knowledge.

As such, "intelligent design" is not scientific, by nature of the fact that it has not passed the level of experimentation and peer review that an actual scientific theory would have to undergo to receive that status. By definition, though, ID will never receive that status, because it infuses the untestable and unverifiable notion of "God" in it. ID is, nothing more and nothing less, bad theology and terrible science.

The third alternative, which is highly prevalent, but probably the least recognizable by name, is "evolutionary creationism," a.k.a., "theistic evolution." In short, those who believe this accept the entirety of science in regards to evolution, but attribute it to God. So, basically, the Big Bang? Created by God. A 13 billion year old universe? Created by God. Science discovers that the universe is really 20 billion years old? We just didn't measure God's creation accurately. Natural selection? A part of God's plan that we cannot comprehend. And, indeed, although atheist scientists like Richard Dawkins get all the media attention, there have been theists all throughout the history of the theory of evolution. Alfred Russel Wallace, a contemporary of Charles Darwin who also made many contributions to evolution by natural selection, was strongly spiritual.

Theodosius Dobzhansky, a Russian Orthodox Christian and an evolutionary biologist, wrote this famous quote in 1973:

Quote:
"I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God's, or Nature's, method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way... Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts... the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness."
I, myself, believe in the last concept of "evolutionary creationism." Conflict between science and religion today is increasingly pointless in light of this concept, and that's why threads like these today, over 140 years after Darwin's original paper on evolution, are downright silly.

Now as for whether to teach God in science class, I'm reminded of a Bible verse:

"There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens." - Ecclesiastes 3:1

Science class is the time for science, and religious studies, whether in a private Christian school, in Sunday school, or in a church sermon, are the time for religion. To mix religion into science would degrade science, just as mixing numerology would degrade mathematics. To those who don't accept the scientific theories on evolution, you don't have to accept them--that is your constitutional prerogative--but you would be doing yourself a great disservice not to understand it, just as one would take a comparative religion class to understand the various religions of the world.

As for the place of secularism in this world and the American Founding Fathers, it must be remembered that Christianity then and Christianity today were vastly different. Evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity did not exist until the 1830s, but they were the ones that propagated the oft-quoted fallacy that our Founding Fathers were devout Christians, which they used as a tool for evangelism. The reasoning was that by propping up our Founding Fathers as "Christian heroes" worthy of emulation, people would strive to be like them. Needless to say, it worked, but that does make it any less fallacious.

Our Founding Fathers were Enlightenment-era deists, whose modern equivalent would be Unitarians or agnostics. It has to be understood that Americans were very cold to religion during the post-revolutionary world, because of their bad experiences with the state Church of England--much like the experience today amongst European nations with state churches with very low church attendance. As such, to make a direct comparison between the religious controversies of today and the religious controversies of then would be sloppy.

It would perhaps be better to compare our situation to nations around the world today with little to no separation of church and state, like much of the Middle East, Sudan, Nigeria, and even Northern Ireland, to a small degree. Most of these nations are either full of extremists or paralyzed by sectarian violence.

Nations like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and the Canadian province of Québec, in the mid-20th century, were heavily "Christian" states, much like many fundamentalist Christians today wish they could have here in the United States. Nevertheless, these states were often repressive to dissenting ideas, and decades later, the people of these countries generally want little to do with Christianity today. Québec, in particular, is known for many beautiful churches--which few attend today.

In short, our Founding Fathers were not gods, and they would likely balk today if we'd ask, "What Would George Do?" And regardless of what they believed, whether they were agnostic deists or devout Christians, they should not set the standard for what we would do today. However, we can learn from history and contemporary events to know that turning the United States into a "Christian country" would be a disastrous idea that would be a ticket to repression and an eventual mass rejection of Christianity in future generations.

America's genius has generally been with its diversity, where people have been historically judged by the validity of their ideas, rather than the ethnicity or religion of the person saying it. We're certainly not perfect, as a nation, but we're certainly better than many of the alternatives, and I hope people of all stripes stop to think of that.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:45 PM   #341
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Thanks for that! I thought he was dino-something! A_Wanderer, you should watch Godzilla. It made me sad that you didn't recognize him. I recommend "Destroy all monsters"
I am more partial to Gamera
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:00 PM   #342
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Originally posted by 2861U2
Folks, if you dont believe it, dont believe it. As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible. I'll look it up for you:

"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox." -Job 40:15

"It was you who crushed the heads of Levaithan (a Biblical sea monster)" -Psalm 74:14

"You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent." -Psalm 91:13

"He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon." -Rev. 13:11

I could give more examples.
By the way, it's been shown that most of these depictions of mythological monsters were actually the result of encountering a previously unknown animal species--then exaggerating it to be much larger and ferocious than it actually was. One Roman depiction of a "monster" in Germania, for instance, was thought to be the result of the Romans having first encountered the walrus.

So, really, most of this is the result of a mixture of Semitic mythology with the discovery of actual species. And that distinction is certainly not lost in the modern Hebrew language. The ancient Hebrew word for "leviathan" is the modern Hebrew word for "whale."
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:09 PM   #343
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Coincidentally, The USA Today has an evolution/creationism poll on the front page of this weekend's paper.

They polled 1007 people. Two-thirds said that creationism is 'definitely or probably true.' About one-half said that evolution is definitely or probably true, and one-quarter believes in both creationism and evolution.

30% would be less likely to vote for a presidential candidate who rejects evolution, 15% more likely, and for 53% it would make no difference in their presidential vote.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:19 PM   #344
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I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.
Not one person claimed there was "zero mention" we're just smart enough to know it's a freaking metaphor.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:55 PM   #345
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not one person claimed there was "zero mention" we're just smart enough to know it's a freaking metaphor.
Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).
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