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Old 06-08-2007, 04:37 PM   #241
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As such, there is room for other views.


sure. scientifically sound views. in a science classroom.

other stuff? take it to religion/philosophy class.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:40 PM   #242
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How is taking away a religious influence on a sense of morality problematic? A capacity for empathy is far more important than the religious influence of morality. Moral values seem to make most sense when derived from non-moral values such as human welfare, rather than from a religious code.
We've seen that movie and it ends in misery. The welfare of the whole eventually becomes more important than the welfare of the individual.
If there is no transcendent source of morality than good and evil become subjective opinions instead of objective truths.

Coarse some reject even the language of good and evil.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:41 PM   #243
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Not much to say, I simply disagree with you. I think it is absolutely impossible for an athiest or anyone else to prove that a God doesnt exist. I dont care how great our science and research is, it is simply impossible to prove there isnt a God. Likewise, it is impossible to prove that there is a God.
I didn't say that atheists can categorically disprove the existence of God. That's the old problem of proving a negative. I said that the onus is on the theist to try to prove God's existence. I can say that I think there are elephants playing 'Mofo' on Mars but you have no need to take me seriously until I provide some evidence for my claim. It's up to me to prove it, not up to you to disprove it.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:42 PM   #244
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Originally posted by INDY500


We've seen that movie and it ends in misery. The welfare of the whole eventually becomes more important than the welfare of the individual.
If there is no transcendent source of morality than good and evil become subjective opinions instead of objective truths.

Coarse some reject even the language of good and evil.


and what movie was that?

besides, good and evil have always, always, always been subject to culture and history.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:46 PM   #245
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Originally posted by INDY500


We've seen that movie and it ends in misery. The welfare of the whole eventually becomes more important than the welfare of the individual.
If there is no transcendent source of morality than good and evil become subjective opinions instead of objective truths.

Coarse some reject even the language of good and evil.
Your black and white world must be easy...
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:46 PM   #246
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Thank you that's all I've been saying. Science is not the be all and end all of all answers. They only can answer questions as we know them today (or know them relative to any time period). As such, there is room for other views.
But other views should not be presented as science.



If you are teaching medicine, i. e. how to treat an infection.

answer:
- antibiotics

other views:
- acupuncture
- chanting
- herb tea
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:47 PM   #247
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Wow, with three sentences you solve three mysteries that have been perplexing scientists for over 100 years. How about the recipe for Greek Fire and how the Hanging Gardens were built?
I am not a cosmologist but since pulsars are types of neutron stars and neutron stars form from intense gravitational forces when a lot of stellar matter is compressed in a small space by gravity it is reasonable to say that Pulsars can exist because of gravity (a different question than how they work and how one can go about mathematically describing the observed features) but I know a bit about fossils and evolutionary biology. The demise of the Dinosaurs was the result of a mass extinction event, so in strata earlier than the Cretaceous we don't find Dinosaurs (except for the Birds which have been scientifically proven to be dinosaurs on the basis of morphology, the discovery of transitional forms including the feathered dinosaurs from China and recently the protein analysis from a T-Rex fossil (a case of exceptional preservation). The causes of mass extinctions are usually multi-factorial but things such as climate change and studies of stability in complex systems can factor into it. The fact that we have had multiple mass extinctions allows us to look into what causes the die off of whole taxa in large numbers. We can say that the dinosaurs died out and that birds are dinosaurs.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:47 PM   #248
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I didn't say that atheists can categorically disprove the existence of God. That's the old problem of proving a negative. I said that the onus is on the theist to try to prove God's existence. I can say that I think there are elephants playing 'Mofo' on Mars but you have no need to take me seriously until I provide some evidence for my claim. It's up to me to prove it, not up to you to disprove it.
You're right. I get the feeling too many people here are waiting for Christianity to be proven scientifically, and it isnt going to happen. If there isnt any tangible proof that God created the universe, fair enough, but that doesnt mean He didnt. Remember, Christianity is a religion, folks. It is not going to ever meet scientific standards or be 100% accepted. Neither I nor Snowlock nor Indy can find a report proving that there is a God, and some people here seem to be expecting one. Show me all the science crap you want, I believe God created the world in 6. I think it is kind of sad that some here are so desperate to disprove something that is already unable to be proven. Move along.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:49 PM   #249
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Show me all the science crap you want, I believe God created the world in 6.
And how many hours did those dinosaurs live?
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:49 PM   #250
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and what movie was that?

besides, good and evil have always, always, always been subject to culture and history.
Godless states.

Communism, Nazism and Vermontism.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:50 PM   #251
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Originally posted by INDY500


We've seen that movie and it ends in misery. The welfare of the whole eventually becomes more important than the welfare of the individual.
If there is no transcendent source of morality than good and evil become subjective opinions instead of objective truths.

Coarse some reject even the language of good and evil.
And heaven forbid some who disavow God take individualism and the rights and liberties of concious beings as a rational way to approach moral dilemmas (which are inherently subjective).
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:55 PM   #252
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I think it is kind of sad that some here are so desperate to disprove something that is already unable to be proven. Move along.
I can disprove literal creationism, the Earth is billions of years old and it can be dated by measuring the ratios of parent to daughter isotopes from radioactive decay. In rocks dated at different ages using geochronology there are different types of fossils in them and we don't observe a period when every possible species of life existed on the same planet (in some cases they simply couldn't have lived together due to different temperatures and atmospheric conditions.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:56 PM   #253
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You're right. I get the feeling too many people here are waiting for Christianity to be proven scientifically, and it isnt going to happen. If there isnt any tangible proof that God created the universe, fair enough, but that doesnt mean He didnt. Remember, Christianity is a religion, folks. It is not going to ever meet scientific standards or be 100% accepted. Neither I nor Snowlock nor Indy can find a report proving that there is a God, and some people here seem to be expecting one. Show me all the science crap you want, I believe God created the world in 6. I think it is kind of sad that some here are so desperate to disprove something that is already unable to be proven. Move along.


i'm waiting for Hinduism to be proven scientifically.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:58 PM   #254
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Godless states.

Communism, Nazism and Vermontism.

firstly, as a New Englander, i can attest to the fact that Vermont is a great state. if you get hurt, you want to be in VT. much better health care.

oh, and they started treating gay people like people before anyone else in the US. so they've got that as well.

as for the others ... don't you see the difference between having a secular government that never interferes with the religion of the governed versus the direct eradication of religion by the state? it's that laissez-faire thing.

believe me. you want secularism just as much as i do. even if you don't know it yet.
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:00 PM   #255
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Originally posted by 2861U2


You're right. I get the feeling too many people here are waiting for Christianity to be proven scientifically, and it isnt going to happen. If there isnt any tangible proof that God created the universe, fair enough, but that doesnt mean He didnt. Remember, Christianity is a religion, folks. It is not going to ever meet scientific standards or be 100% accepted. Neither I nor Snowlock nor Indy can find a report proving that there is a God, and some people here seem to be expecting one. Show me all the science crap you want, I believe God created the world in 6. I think it is kind of sad that some here are so desperate to disprove something that is already unable to be proven. Move along.
I'm not desperate to prove you wrong. I really can't believe that you think "God created the world in 6" though. I've never met anyone who believed this. You may have seen this already but Ricky Gervais highlights the absurdity of the view in my opinion. If you are a creationist it's unlikely that you'll find it particularly funny though!
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