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Old 06-08-2007, 04:22 PM   #226
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Do they even teach in school anymore the symbolism on the reverse of our national seal? Could they if secular-progressives win the day?


you leap to such extreme conclusions.

secular-progressives are fine with the teaching of history -- if religion plays a part in history, by God, teach it.

this is *very* different than making students pray, putting up crosses in classroom, and forcing supersititons into science classes.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:23 PM   #227
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It says freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
I love how theocracists always use this line. It means nothing.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:23 PM   #228
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Originally posted by INDY500


Right, but what happens when you take away that religous influence.



Do they even teach in school anymore the symbolism on the reverse of our national seal? Could they if secular-progressives win the day?
How is taking away a religious influence on a sense of morality problematic? A capacity for empathy is far more important than the religious influence of morality. Moral values seem to make most sense when derived from non-moral values such as human welfare, rather than from a religious code.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:24 PM   #229
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I disagree with you here.
Please elaborate.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:25 PM   #230
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I love how theocracists always use this line. It means nothing.
It has meaning with free speech etc. but they just don't understand the concept of the secular state protecting their right to believe.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:25 PM   #231
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Originally posted by Irvine511



this is *very* different than making students pray, putting up crosses in classroom, and forcing supersititons into science classes.
I think it is you who is jumping to extremem conclusions. What public school is doing what you describe above? People like me dont want that. I simply want the word Christmas to be able to be mentioned and that the Pledge be spoken every day. You seem to think that people like me desire the public school system to be a tool to convert everyone to Christianity, and that is incorrect.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:27 PM   #232
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Tax dollars from atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Christians ad infinitum go to the US Government which then spends the money on public education; if that public education has classes that promote religious belief or a religious worldview then that is state money being used to respect and establish religion which is a violation. Religious belief gets no promotion or persecution by the state; if you want to promote a religion start a religious school with your own money.
I don't want my tax dollars going toward wellfare or building sporting arenas for rich athletes and richer owners. I don't want them to be subsidizing abortion clinics or ethanol refineries. But they do. So how is that any different? Maybe my kid won't play football; does that mean I'll have a deduction from my taxes relative to the percentage that goes toward that sports program? What if I think the choir is a waste of time, or sex ed? Should I not have to pay for those either?

It's not the promotion of religious beliefs that I'm concerned about; its the persecution. If we're so busy trying to make sure we're not promoting religion and start banning all instances of it, then we are in fact persecuting religion.

Teaching the full course on evolution, and then when the eventual hand gets raised that says "yeah, but what started all this evolution" the instructor says "one theory is God and here's why" that isn't promoting religion any more than recounting how the early Catholic Church became the integral part of society that it was during the middle ages.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:31 PM   #233
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Please elaborate.
Not much to say, I simply disagree with you. I think it is absolutely impossible for an athiest or anyone else to prove that a God doesnt exist. I dont care how great our science and research is, it is simply impossible to prove there isnt a God. Likewise, it is impossible to prove that there is a God.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:33 PM   #234
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Originally posted by deep


science does not claim to have all the answers

they only present what can be supported

Thank you that's all I've been saying. Science is not the be all and end all of all answers. They only can answer questions as we know them today (or know them relative to any time period). As such, there is room for other views.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:33 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


I don't want my tax dollars going toward wellfare or building sporting arenas for rich athletes and richer owners. I don't want them to be subsidizing abortion clinics or ethanol refineries. But they do. So how is that any different? Maybe my kid won't play football; does that mean I'll have a deduction from my taxes relative to the percentage that goes toward that sports program? What if I think the choir is a waste of time, or sex ed? Should I not have to pay for those either?



yes, but such things aren't unconstitutional. you've voted for representatives who are supposed to spend your money. if you don't like how they spend it, vote them out, but you don't get to pick-and-choose how that money is spent.

i don't want a dime of my money going to this horror show in Iraq, but i don't get that choice.


[q]It's not the promotion of religious beliefs that I'm concerned about; its the persecution. If we're so busy trying to make sure we're not promoting religion and start banning all instances of it, then we are in fact persecuting religion.[/q]

no one is banning all instances of religion. they are simply avoiding the promotion of a particular religion. there's a huge difference.

this country is plenty religious. in fact, we look fanatical to most of the rest of the Western world. American Christians are the lest persecuted group of believers in history.




Quote:
Teaching the full course on evolution, and then when the eventual hand gets raised that says "yeah, but what started all this evolution" the instructor says "one theory is God and here's why" that isn't promoting religion any more than recounting how the early Catholic Church became the integral part of society that it was during the middle ages.

but that's not a scientific theory.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:34 PM   #236
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It's public money and it's only public money that can't be used for promoting religion. The ammount of religiousity in America is a concequence of the freedoms that the secular state enables to exist. Thats different than building a sports stadium that lets people in regardless of race or religion and even has wheelchair ramps or limited government.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:35 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Thank you that's all I've been saying. Science is not the be all and end all of all answers. They only can answer questions as we know them today (or know them relative to any time period). As such, there is room for other views.
But the part that you aren't quite understanding is:

Quote:
they only present what can be supported
Intelligent design can't be supported.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:35 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Teaching the full course on evolution, and then when the eventual hand gets raised that says "yeah, but what started all this evolution" the instructor says "one theory is God and here's why" that isn't promoting religion any more than recounting how the early Catholic Church became the integral part of society that it was during the middle ages.
The answer is Science does not have an answer for a philosophical question.

Science reports what it finds evidence to support, and when new discoveries support new conclusions science presents that information also.

Science is an ever expanding field.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:36 PM   #239
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Pulsars can exist as a concequence of gravity, most clades of the dinosaurs went extinct except for the aves and missing links and dead ends are all through the fossil record (from Tiktaalik to Ambulocetus) only some people never care to notice them.
Wow, with three sentences you solve three mysteries that have been perplexing scientists for over 100 years. How about the recipe for Greek Fire and how the Hanging Gardens were built?
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:37 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


Not much to say, I simply disagree with you. I think it is absolutely impossible for an athiest or anyone else to prove that a God doesnt exist. I dont care how great our science and research is, it is simply impossible to prove there isnt a God. Likewise, it is impossible to prove that there is a God.
So your saying that God isn't falsifiable and thus not an entity that can be approached in a scientific manner and concequently not something to include in a materialistic worldview?
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