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Old 06-08-2007, 02:57 PM   #181
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Originally posted by INDY500


America was founded to be a free nation, not a secular one.


question for you:

since you value freedom, as do i, do you share my concerns about the threat to freedoms not by Islamist fundamentalist terrorism, but by that which will be done in our name to supposedly protect us from it?

or how about abroad? the whole host of ironies: we fought a war free Iraqis from Saddam's torture, then we torture people where Sadadm once did; we fight a war to bring democracy to the Middle East and demonstrate -- not just assert -- the fundamental superiority of Western Values and the Western Way of Life; and then we then enable chaos and genocide through our own logistical shortcomings and our historical blindness.

isn't all this far more dire than "... in god we trust"?
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:59 PM   #182
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Originally posted by 2861U2


O'Reilly is neither a jerk nor on the right.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...3mackris1.html

best/worst part: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...mackris17.html
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #183
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Originally posted by Irvine511




so you demand the respect from atheists that you'd never extend back to one?
faith, not Faith. having faith that the sun will shine so you can bbq at the family reunion, faith that your football team will pull through even though they're down.

They're believe something just to believe it.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:03 PM   #184
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Originally posted by Snowlock
They're believe something just to believe it.


pot? kettle?
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:04 PM   #185
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Yeah we all know about this, well most of us, and it's inexcusable.

This is why I won't buy any of his books.

What he does say though rings true, apparently he has some proclivities that he needs to marshall in, like all of us.

dbs
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:07 PM   #186
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Originally posted by Irvine511




pot? kettle?
Wrong argument; Irv. The original poster derided creationsim as believe something just to believe it. I said that you could describe faith in general that way, meaning having a positive outlook. And those people (any people) who do not have a positive outlook would be a pretty sad lot.

So in other words, we believe in things every day just to believe in them. There's nothing at all wrong with that.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:10 PM   #187
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Originally posted by Snowlock

So in other words, we believe in things every day just to believe in them. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

then i'm not sure what the point was -- i had thought you were equating atheism to a pointless belief, a belief just to believe.

but, anyway ... to add some spice to this: HANNITY VS. HITCHENS!
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:14 PM   #188
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Originally posted by Snowlock


faith, not Faith. having faith that the sun will shine so you can bbq at the family reunion, faith that your football team will pull through even though they're down.

They're believe something just to believe it.
What's your point? You're really stretching the usage of the word. You're really just talking about hoping for those events to happen. There's no need to use the word 'faith' here. I hope that my team wins. Big deal. Doesn't seem relevant to the concept of faith or fideism.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:14 PM   #189
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Originally posted by Irvine511



i had thought you were equating atheism to a pointless belief, a belief just to believe.
Nope wasn't. Saying the opposite, believing just to believe is not pointless.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:16 PM   #190
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Originally posted by Snowlock


Nope wasn't. Saying the opposite, believing just to believe is not pointless.

the above post got at a good point -- aren't you talking about "hope" vs "faith"?

though i'm not sure that this is a good line of discussion to follow at present.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:21 PM   #191
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Originally posted by DublinGuy


What's your point? You're really stretching the usage of the word. You're really just talking about hoping for those events to happen. There's no need to use the word 'faith' here. I hope that my team wins. Big deal. Doesn't seem relevant to the concept of faith or fideism.
It certainly is relevant. You've never been told, or told someone else to "have faith" or to "have faith in you". They're hoping you'll pull through, or you are. I'm not stretching the word at all.

You Said:

[q]My main point was that the person who said be believed that God spoke to Jesus because it's too great not to "want to believe" seems to have an unusual belief-forming process, and that this idea of believing something becasue you want to seems to be an integral part of how theistic beliefs are formed for many, not all, theists. [/q]

My question is simply why is believe something because we want to believe it so wrong? We do it every day for all manner of reasons religious or not.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:24 PM   #192
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Originally posted by Irvine511



the above post got at a good point -- aren't you talking about "hope" vs "faith"?

How much of a difference is there really? You can't have faith without doubt, and you can't have hope without doubt. You're right in that this will wander off topic (hi hannity & whoever), but it goes back to the original poster taking the other guy to task for believing something just because he wants to believe it.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:24 PM   #193
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Originally posted by Irvine511

the founding fathers, however -- effete secular progressives if ever there were.
No, no, no. They acknowledged the need for a wall between State and Church. But understood well then need for religious morality in the populace and the nations leaders.
Quote:
Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
--George Washington
Secular progressives don't believe in absolute moral truths, they believe instead that it is up to the individual to decide right and wrong. Further, they seek to remove God and religion from the public square.
The founders never espoused any of this and in fact warn against such folly.
Quote:
"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."
-- William Penn
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:36 PM   #194
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No, no, no. They acknowledged the need for a wall between State and Church. But understood well then need for religious morality in the populace and the nations leaders.


Secular progressives don't believe in absolute moral truths, they believe instead that it is up to the individual to decide right and wrong. Further, they seek to remove God and religion from the public square.
The founders never espoused any of this and in fact warn against such folly.


pulling out random quotes really isn't much for argument making.

i can agree that "morality" is at its weightiest when we can say "God sez ..."

you've also put words that really have no meaning in the mouths of secular progressives -- are they the new "liberals"? the buzzword to get the "(my) faith'n'values" all riled up? yes, many who are secular and progressive (as well as those who are religious, we can do better than reducing everything to us vs. them, can't we) seek to maintain the neutrality of the *public* space in order to ensure that religous freedom, and the freedom from religion, are maintained.

and some of this is negotiable.

am i offended by a christmas tree in a public park? no.

a cross in a classroom? yes.

a menorah in a public park in december? no.

a mandated "MERRY CHRISTMAS" from Wal-mart? yes.

but, ultimately, no, i don't believe in ABSOLUTE MORAL TRUTHS, especially not the contention that they've been written down in a book by GOD HIMSELF.

i believe in ethics and responsibility and morality as i've come to understand it, which is certainly influenced by religion, but is not shackled to it.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:40 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


It certainly is relevant. You've never been told, or told someone else to "have faith" or to "have faith in you". They're hoping you'll pull through, or you are. I'm not stretching the word at all.

You Said:

[q]My main point was that the person who said be believed that God spoke to Jesus because it's too great not to "want to believe" seems to have an unusual belief-forming process, and that this idea of believing something becasue you want to seems to be an integral part of how theistic beliefs are formed for many, not all, theists. [/q]

My question is simply why is believe something because we want to believe it so wrong? We do it every day for all manner of reasons religious or not.
Sorry, I just wrote a lengthy reply but lost it before I managed to post it so I'll write a shortened version. I can't fathom believing something just because I want to believe it because philosophy and science are too important to me. I appreciate that others do, however, and while I wouldn't attack them for it, I think that watering down the reasons for our beliefs to "Because I want to" would hinder human progress in the lon-run. With your faith vs Faith distinction, you seem to be confusing the question of a belief IN with the question of a hope THAT. Two entirely separate issues. Regarding blind faith, I agress with Kurt Vonnegut:

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!"
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