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Old 06-08-2007, 02:18 PM   #166
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Originally posted by Snowlock


Believing something because you want to is also a pretty good way to describe faith in general. You'd be a pretty sad lot if you though faith was a waste of time.

But like I said, and I've sure been guilty as well, you should watch out for painting billions of people with a single brush stroke. Not every believer is a fantatic.
Again, I was speaking about some, not all believers. Why are people who think faith to be a waste of time a sad lot though?
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:19 PM   #167
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Actually, many of our founders regarded America as a "Second Israel." Thomas Jefferson (that little Deist) wanted the United States seal to depict the Jews leaving Egypt...as Americans left Europe.
Imagine that!


the wrinkle being that they were escaping religiosity and entering secularism?

seems to perfectly go along with deism.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:21 PM   #168
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Originally posted by Snowlock

You'd be a pretty sad lot if you thought faith was a waste of time.


so you demand the respect from atheists that you'd never extend back to one?
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:27 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




the wrinkle being that they were escaping religiosity and entering secularism?

seems to perfectly go along with deism.
America was founded to be a free nation, not a secular one.

Quote:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever.
I'm sure you've visited the Jefferson Memorial. It's right there, in stone.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:30 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


America was founded to be a free nation, not a secular one.



I'm sure you've visited the Jefferson Memorial. It's right there, in stone.
Correct.

I love how "secular progressives" congregate here and think they are in the majority, makes me giggle.

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Old 06-08-2007, 02:32 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


America was founded to be a free nation, not a secular one.



ah, but you can't have one without the other.

and Jefferson knew that.


Quote:
I'm sure you've visited the Jefferson Memorial. It's right there, in stone.
i have. and Jefferson was pretty far out and brilliant.

i've said that i think the impetous behind the DOI, and Jefferson, is the idea that Bono has talked about -- the idea of the shepherd coming in from the field, smelling of shit, and pointed to the king and saying, "in the eyes of God, i am your equal." revolutionary. moving. powerful. and that idea can be a powerful motivator for social justice -- it's not so much "what if not but for the grace of God that were me" and more "that is me" when we look at the child with AIDS in Africa, when we hear about Iraqi storekeepers have their eyeballs drilled, when there's a cholera outbreak after a mudslide in the Phillippeans.

if we are all from the same place -- God -- then we all have the same rights, and those rights never go away.

beautiful. lovely. i'm a fan.

but that's as far as it goes. Jefferson knew, as did they all know looking back across the water at Europe, that man makes God to fit his institutions. and who's a more powerful authority than God?

hence, we remove man's notions -- and all religion is a man-made notion -- of the Almight/Common Creator/God from the institutions themselves ... but not from the people who manage those institutions ... and, voila, you have tangible freedom and opportunity.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:33 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

I love how "secular progressives" congregate here and think they are in the majority, makes me giggle.


i love it when people regurgitate O'Reilly soundbytes.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:40 PM   #173
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i love it when people regurgitate O'Reilly soundbytes.
Ha, nice one. Secular progressives are useful to any society, be they in the minority or not. That O'Reilly jerk spoke at my college recently. Another ridiculously right-wing Irish-American!
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:46 PM   #174
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I don't picture the pilgrims as a bunch of whistling and skipping secularists.

And that Bill O'Reilly articulates in a name a movement that describes a small cross section of the American population is fine with me, and I do not think he'd take umbridge w me using it here.


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Old 06-08-2007, 02:49 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I don't picture the pilgrims as a bunch of whistling and skipping secularists.


the pilgrims weren't, you're right.

the founding fathers, however -- effete secular progressives if ever there were.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:51 PM   #176
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Quote:
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I don't picture the pilgrims as a bunch of whistling and skipping secularists.

Diamond needs to take a history lesson.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:53 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



the founding fathers, however -- effete secular progressives if ever there were.
i disagree.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:53 PM   #178
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Ha, nice one. Secular progressives are useful to any society, be they in the minority or not. That O'Reilly jerk spoke at my college recently. Another ridiculously right-wing Irish-American!
O'Reilly is neither a jerk nor on the right.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:56 PM   #179
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O'Reilly is neither a jerk nor on the right.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:56 PM   #180
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O'Reilly is neither a jerk nor on the right.
Are you kidding? He's a grade A asshole, and he may claim he's an independent but that's just to gain points...
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