Creationism isn't Right

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Too tired to read it all, but weighing in with, I don't care if people believe in creationism, it would be nice to think this god thing did all this stuff and made the earth - i mean we're all searching for meaning in our lives, and where we've come from, where we're going etc so i understand peoples complete acceptance of the bible and all that stuff. I just think they need to have the stuffs to stand up and say - yes its all pretty stupid and far fetched, but i believe it so nyah, and have a bit of a laugh rather then getting offended. I mean, if someone says they heard a voice in their head, or a burning bush talked to them, they'd be locked up for being crazy, and im sure the "believers" would be in the forefront of that, so why does it not work the other way?
 
Smallville said:


although you aren't doing us any favors with your dragon shit,

Folks, if you dont believe it, dont believe it. As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible. I'll look it up for you:

"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox." -Job 40:15

"It was you who crushed the heads of Levaithan (a Biblical sea monster)" -Psalm 74:14

"You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent." -Psalm 91:13

"He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon." -Rev. 13:11

I could give more examples.
 
Smallville said:


It is, although you aren't doing us any favors with your dragon shit, but why is it so hard for some to belive that an all powerful being can create outside of the laws of science?



wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.
 
2861U2 said:

As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible.




and ... really, what is anyone expected to do with a post that's predicated by this disclaimer?
 
hardyharhar said:


Now that I think about it, I haven't seen the Raymond Burr Godzilla in quite a while. What a shame.

So the version released now does not have Raymond Burr in it, or it's just cut differently?

image.php


My old avatar!

The original Godzilla is also the most blatant example of changing the movie for U.S. tastes. Not only was narrative footage with an American actor (Raymond Burr) shot and inserted into the film at the cost of 30 minutes of other footage but the whole tone of the movie was changed.
The American version plays like most 50's Sci-fi with a big monster loose in the country and how are we gonna kill it.
The 1954 Japanese version Gojira (yes they even changed his name) is nothing less then a sobering alllegory to the still fresh horrors of atomic warfare with an undertone of blaming "irresponsible science." It is suspenseful, much more frightening and even causes one to give pause and think about the awful scars that remain from war long after the shooting has stopped.

The series became more of a commercial product aimed at kids later on (and that's OK because they were fun and stirred the imagination) but the original Japanese film is a masterpiece IMO and should be seen.
 
Irvine511 said:




wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.

Haven't you got anything constructive to say...about Japanese men in rubber monster costumes.
 
Irvine511 said:




wah! when people hold my highly subjective, self-serving beliefs up to intellecutal scrutiny, they are assulting me! persecuting me! i can't possibly be expected to defend the ideas i'll use to exclude others! i'm a conservative american christian! i'm persecuted when people challenge me! i'm persecuted when people don't affirm all my beliefs! i'm persecuted when OTHER christians don't agree with my narrow vision of my religion! it's offensive when people challenge me when i've created religion in my own image!




if you think this is an assault on christianity, you should try walking in an actual minority's shoes -- religious, sexual, racial, or otherwise -- for just a few steps one day.

I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like that. You need to calm down.
 
Irvine511 said:





and ... really, what is anyone expected to do with a post that's predicated by this disclaimer?

I have no idea what you're talking about. The issue of dragons or dinosaurs in the Bible was labeled as "shit" and I was addressing it and backing it up with Bible verses. I am not a religious scholar, and do not spend hours studying the Bible each day. I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.
 
2861U2 said:
I'm losing track of the idea of this thread. People who believe in creationism said why, and people who believe in evolution stated why. The latter crowd seems intent on getting the former crowd to prove creationism, which neither I nor anyone else can do. What do you want me to say? Can creationism be proven? No, of course not. Is there more scientific evidence reinforcing evolution as opposed to creationism? Yes, there sure is. I really dont get what you all want. This is turning into an assault on Christianity.

I love how you essentially equated Christianity to believeing in creationism. You said there are two crowds, one who believe in creationism, one who believe in evolution, then said the latter is assaulting Christianity.

Sorry if me being Christian and being a bit skeptical about your beliefs is screwing that up.

I'm more opposed to the Christians (not all, but those who do) who use the Bible as a way to discriminate against groups of people (i.e.: homosexuals), then anything, so I'm passing on this evolution-creationism debate for the most part. What you believe in that case isn't hurting anyone like discrimination is.
 
I'm honestly surprised that this thread is still open today. While I spied on it at work (where posting here, I bet, would probably get me fired in the long run), I found myself interested in commenting on a few things here.

First off, I don't think that we're all operating on the same set of terminology. "Creationism" can mean "young-Earth creationism," where the Earth was created over a literal seven, 24-hour days and the universe is approximately 6,000 years old. The Creation Museum, apparently, prescribes to an extremist form of this theology. This is the kind of creationism that people who are opposed to it automatically start visualizing in their heads, because it is the most unscientific and disproven of them of all.

Then there's some who use the term "creationism" to mean "intelligent design," which is a fundamentalist Christian-constructed theology that mixes a semblance of science with a rather haphazard and subjective appliance of religion to create something that honestly resembles nothing of either.

This theology exploits the general public's lack of deeper science education, because, as Irvine511 pointed out yesterday, there is a huge difference between the vernacular definition of "theory," which is essentially conjecture, and the scientific definition of "theory," which is the end result of years of study and peer-reviewed documentation. Gravity is technically defined under a scientific "theory," not a "law," and the Theory of Gravity has been heavily amended over the years, because of advances in scientific understanding and knowledge.

As such, "intelligent design" is not scientific, by nature of the fact that it has not passed the level of experimentation and peer review that an actual scientific theory would have to undergo to receive that status. By definition, though, ID will never receive that status, because it infuses the untestable and unverifiable notion of "God" in it. ID is, nothing more and nothing less, bad theology and terrible science.

The third alternative, which is highly prevalent, but probably the least recognizable by name, is "evolutionary creationism," a.k.a., "theistic evolution." In short, those who believe this accept the entirety of science in regards to evolution, but attribute it to God. So, basically, the Big Bang? Created by God. A 13 billion year old universe? Created by God. Science discovers that the universe is really 20 billion years old? We just didn't measure God's creation accurately. Natural selection? A part of God's plan that we cannot comprehend. And, indeed, although atheist scientists like Richard Dawkins get all the media attention, there have been theists all throughout the history of the theory of evolution. Alfred Russel Wallace, a contemporary of Charles Darwin who also made many contributions to evolution by natural selection, was strongly spiritual.

Theodosius Dobzhansky, a Russian Orthodox Christian and an evolutionary biologist, wrote this famous quote in 1973:

"I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God's, or Nature's, method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way... Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts... the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness."

I, myself, believe in the last concept of "evolutionary creationism." Conflict between science and religion today is increasingly pointless in light of this concept, and that's why threads like these today, over 140 years after Darwin's original paper on evolution, are downright silly.

Now as for whether to teach God in science class, I'm reminded of a Bible verse:

"There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens." - Ecclesiastes 3:1

Science class is the time for science, and religious studies, whether in a private Christian school, in Sunday school, or in a church sermon, are the time for religion. To mix religion into science would degrade science, just as mixing numerology would degrade mathematics. To those who don't accept the scientific theories on evolution, you don't have to accept them--that is your constitutional prerogative--but you would be doing yourself a great disservice not to understand it, just as one would take a comparative religion class to understand the various religions of the world.

As for the place of secularism in this world and the American Founding Fathers, it must be remembered that Christianity then and Christianity today were vastly different. Evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity did not exist until the 1830s, but they were the ones that propagated the oft-quoted fallacy that our Founding Fathers were devout Christians, which they used as a tool for evangelism. The reasoning was that by propping up our Founding Fathers as "Christian heroes" worthy of emulation, people would strive to be like them. Needless to say, it worked, but that does make it any less fallacious.

Our Founding Fathers were Enlightenment-era deists, whose modern equivalent would be Unitarians or agnostics. It has to be understood that Americans were very cold to religion during the post-revolutionary world, because of their bad experiences with the state Church of England--much like the experience today amongst European nations with state churches with very low church attendance. As such, to make a direct comparison between the religious controversies of today and the religious controversies of then would be sloppy.

It would perhaps be better to compare our situation to nations around the world today with little to no separation of church and state, like much of the Middle East, Sudan, Nigeria, and even Northern Ireland, to a small degree. Most of these nations are either full of extremists or paralyzed by sectarian violence.

Nations like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and the Canadian province of Québec, in the mid-20th century, were heavily "Christian" states, much like many fundamentalist Christians today wish they could have here in the United States. Nevertheless, these states were often repressive to dissenting ideas, and decades later, the people of these countries generally want little to do with Christianity today. Québec, in particular, is known for many beautiful churches--which few attend today.

In short, our Founding Fathers were not gods, and they would likely balk today if we'd ask, "What Would George Do?" And regardless of what they believed, whether they were agnostic deists or devout Christians, they should not set the standard for what we would do today. However, we can learn from history and contemporary events to know that turning the United States into a "Christian country" would be a disastrous idea that would be a ticket to repression and an eventual mass rejection of Christianity in future generations.

America's genius has generally been with its diversity, where people have been historically judged by the validity of their ideas, rather than the ethnicity or religion of the person saying it. We're certainly not perfect, as a nation, but we're certainly better than many of the alternatives, and I hope people of all stripes stop to think of that.
 
unico said:


Thanks for that! I thought he was dino-something! A_Wanderer, you should watch Godzilla. It made me sad that you didn't recognize him. I recommend "Destroy all monsters" :up:
I am more partial to Gamera :wink:
 
2861U2 said:
Folks, if you dont believe it, dont believe it. As I said, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it, I havent studied it enough, but the point is that it is right there, in the Bible. I'll look it up for you:

"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox." -Job 40:15

"It was you who crushed the heads of Levaithan (a Biblical sea monster)" -Psalm 74:14

"You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent." -Psalm 91:13

"He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon." -Rev. 13:11

I could give more examples.

By the way, it's been shown that most of these depictions of mythological monsters were actually the result of encountering a previously unknown animal species--then exaggerating it to be much larger and ferocious than it actually was. One Roman depiction of a "monster" in Germania, for instance, was thought to be the result of the Romans having first encountered the walrus.

So, really, most of this is the result of a mixture of Semitic mythology with the discovery of actual species. And that distinction is certainly not lost in the modern Hebrew language. The ancient Hebrew word for "leviathan" is the modern Hebrew word for "whale."
 
Coincidentally, The USA Today has an evolution/creationism poll on the front page of this weekend's paper.

They polled 1007 people. Two-thirds said that creationism is 'definitely or probably true.' About one-half said that evolution is definitely or probably true, and one-quarter believes in both creationism and evolution.

30% would be less likely to vote for a presidential candidate who rejects evolution, 15% more likely, and for 53% it would make no difference in their presidential vote.
 
2861U2 said:


I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.

Not one person claimed there was "zero mention" we're just smart enough to know it's a freaking metaphor.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Not one person claimed there was "zero mention" we're just smart enough to know it's a freaking metaphor.

Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).
 
Ormus said:
Nations like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and the Canadian province of Québec, in the mid-20th century, were heavily "Christian" states, much like many fundamentalist Christians today wish they could have here in the United States. Nevertheless, these states were often repressive to dissenting ideas, and decades later, the people of these countries generally want little to do with Christianity today. Québec, in particular, is known for many beautiful churches--which few attend today.


Quebec is a very good example. In the beginning, the general populace responded well to Duplessis' ideas and heavy-handed Catholicism. Eventually, though as Catholicism began to invade more and more of the public sphere things began to change. Courts routinely ruled against him for unconstitutional behaviour. A lot of our core constitutional cases come from this era, in fact. Particularly the discrimination against Jehovah's Witnesses and the state interfering in religious minority groups which did not comply with stringent Catholic views. The end result was a wholesale rejection of Catholicism as a religious concept (although it survives well culturally).

But great example of how when you try to infuse religion into politics, business and schools and when you try to shove religion down people's throats, eventually the gag reflex kicks in. And in the long run, the society swings to the other side of the pendulum and embraces secularism far more than they likely would have had the religious right not insisted on their version of religiosity.
 
2861U2 said:
Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).

Simple: A lack of fossil evidence. Such creatures would have had to have been a larger species with a previously sustainable population, not just one-off monster creatures.

As I just explained, most of these "monsters" originated from these cultures encountering animal species that we currently take for granted today, and, out of fear, exaggerating their features and traits into something frightening, often corresponding to ancient cultural mythology.
 
2861U2 said:


Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).

Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?

A belief in Jesus Christ and an almighty God means that you cannot close any doors or take any options or possibilities off of the table. Let's just pretend that the Bible talks about a 13-legged, 5-eyed, multi-colored polka-dotted flying unicorn. And let's imagine that there was only one of him (not an entire species). That creature could very well be a metaphor, but he also could have really existed. Belief in an all-powerful God, to me, means realizing that He can do or create absolutely anything. For a Christian to say "oh, that creature absolutely did not exist" is blindness on their part, and unless they were there, they cannot know that God could not or did not create such a being simply because we dont have a fossil of it.

To answer your Genesis question, no, the people who wrote Genesis were of course not there to witness the universe's construction. However, accounts told directly by God directly to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob and others, and finally compiled by Moses after he was spoken to on Mount Sinai make me believe what Genesis tells me.
 
2861U2 said:


Were you there? How can you say, with absolute, undeniable certainty, that such creatures did not exist and that they are a metaphor (which they very well might be, nobody knows for sure).

:rolleyes:

So now you are suddenly looking for certainty?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Fossil evidence... And how would you biologically explain fire breathing? Common sense.

Do you actually think those who wrote Genesis were there?

God was there to inspire them

just like he was there at the founding of America
when Jefferson wrote
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator"
 
2861U2 said:


A belief in Jesus Christ and an almighty God means that you cannot close any doors or take any options or possibilities off of the table. Let's just pretend that the Bible talks about a 13-legged, 5-eyed, multi-colored polka-dotted flying unicorn. And let's imagine that there was only one of him (not an entire species). That creature could very well be a metaphor, but he also could have really existed. Belief in an all-powerful God, to me, means realizing that He can do or create absolutely anything. For a Christian to say "oh, that creature absolutely did not exist" is blindness on their part, and unless they were there, they cannot know that God could not or did not create such a being simply because we dont have a fossil of it.


Listen to yourself...

If God is the creator of this universe, what would be the logic of designing such a creature? So far God has always used logic and the laws of science which he created, why would he stray from those just this once?

And this "unless you were there" crap is worthless...

Why would God not want you to know the past? Just think a little...
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


So far God has always used logic and the laws of science which he created, why would he stray from those just this once?

I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

It sounds like you're asking me to get inside the mind of God and figure out why He does things or why He would do certain things. Sorry, but I can't do that.

A few posts ago you mentioned the phrase "common sense." I couldnt help but chuckle when I read that. "Common sense" plays no role in the concept of creationism or in Christianity. "Common sense" does not apply to belief in an all-knowing, all-powerful awesome God, who knows no bounds or limits and who cannot be explained by using common sense.

Edited to say: Also, if I was asked to provide proof of a God or support my belief in God using only common sense and logic, I would fail miserably. I feel they play no role in Christianity.
 
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Ormus said:


Our Founding Fathers were Enlightenment-era deists, whose modern equivalent would be Unitarians or agnostics.


Hold on. Unitarians yes, but agnostics, no way. There is simply no way, no way, you can read the words or look at the symbols of our country during it's infancy and think that the founding fathers held agnostic views towards God.
Deists, it's true, did not believed in a revealed religion, a personal God, or that Jesus was the Son of God; and thus were not Christians per se. But Deism most certainly held that there was a single creator God, a Moral Law attributable to Him, and that He worked in the world through providence. Most also held the view that religion was necessary to produce virtue in it's citizens. And they were extremely biblically literate.
Agnostic, no way.


In addition, not all founders were Deists. There were Episcopalians, Quakers, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists and some others. While the founders tended to be more liberal the population of the country was preponderantly orthodox or evangelical.

It has to be understood that Americans were very cold to religion during the post-revolutionary world

Really, this is pre-revolution but why was Pennsylvania formed? Why is it called Maryland (hint: Mary's land.) Americans were not cold to religion during the time of the revolution.

True, America is not a Christian nation, except in this sense -- it has been from the beginning and remains to be overwhelmingly populated by Christians. In addition, The Republic is not in itself a church -- but it is filled with them.
 
2861U2 said:


I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

It sounds like you're asking me to get inside the mind of God and figure out why He does things or why He would do certain things. Sorry, but I can't do that.

It doesn't suprise me...

That's not what I'm saying :huh: I'm telling you everything has it's purpose, what the hell would a one off fire breathing dragon play in this world? Just think, don't be lazy...

2861U2 said:


A few posts ago you mentioned the phrase "common sense." I couldnt help but chuckle when I read that. "Common sense" plays no role in the concept of creationism or in Christianity. "Common sense" does not apply to belief in an all-knowing, all-powerful awesome God, who knows no bounds or limits and who cannot be explained by using common sense.

Edited to say: Also, if I was asked to provide proof of a God or support my belief in God using only common sense and logic, I would fail miserably. I feel they play no role in Christianity.

You've basically set yourself up for not ever having to think on your own. God is disappointed.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


It doesn't suprise me...

That's not what I'm saying :huh: I'm telling you everything has it's purpose, what the hell would a one off fire breathing dragon play in this world? Just think, don't be lazy...

No, that is exactly what you're asking me to do. You want me to get inside God's head and figure out why He would ever put such a creature on this earth, and I cannot do that, sir. I do not have all the answers and I do not yet know why God does some of the things he does.

And your notion that I do not think for myself is unfortunate. I do think for myself, but I'm a Christian and I believe what God says to me first and foremost. Apparently you missed my posts where I have stated that I wrestle very much with issues and that I have not determined which Bible passages I see as literal and which as metaphorical.
 
2861U2 said:


No, that is exactly what you're asking me to do. You want me to get inside God's head and figure out why He would ever put such a creature on this earth, and I cannot do that, sir. I do not have all the answers and I do not yet know why God does some of the things he does.


Just look around you, everything has a purpose...

I believe what God says to me first and foremost.

God talks to you? Wow you're like Pat Robertson... Has he told you who's going to win the NBA playoffs?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Just look around you, everything has a purpose...

correct, but what that purpose is I do not yet know.



God talks to you?

Yes, he sure does. He talks to me when I am praying to Him every night laying in bed. He talks to me through His Word in the Bible. He talks to me through my interactions with my friends and family, and them with me. God is constantly talking to me and He is constantly talking to you too. If we will only listen for Him and drown out the world we will hear Him. I highly recommend it.
 
2861U2 said:


I have no idea what you're talking about. The issue of dragons or dinosaurs in the Bible was labeled as "shit" and I was addressing it and backing it up with Bible verses. I am not a religious scholar, and do not spend hours studying the Bible each day. I was simply answering those who seem to think that there are zero mentions of "that shit" in the Bible.



for the last time: Creationism, as science, is shit.
 
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