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Old 07-31-2003, 03:28 PM   #91
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Mongpoovian:

Hmm take a look at the European Kingdoms they all maried their relatives
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:39 PM   #92
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This explains a lot
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:45 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Cain would have to sleep with his mother in order to get this world continuing, which I'm sure he didn't marry, then that child would have to sleep with his or her father, brother, sister, or gandparent. Please don't tell me you think this is the way God planned it.

Yes Noah's sons brought their wives, but all their children would have been 1st cousins. I still don't think this sits well.
*Nods*

Not to mention, what race were Adam and Eve, just out of curiosity? How did we wind up with all the other races?

Angela
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Old 07-31-2003, 09:32 PM   #94
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Moonlit_Angel, I'm curious as to what you think of Klaus' and my assertions that God may have created otehr people?
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Old 07-31-2003, 11:43 PM   #95
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Actually, "nothing" deos not equal "something". This is not the conventional Greek nothing, where there is an absence of everything. All this is stating is that all matter and energy in the universe add up to precisely zero. This means that the universe just may be a zero-energy fluctuation either in the fabric of its own space or the space of some larger structure.

Space, on the smallest level, is not smooth. The closer you look at it, in fact, the more violent it looks. Particle-antiparticle pairs are constantly being created (ex nihilo) and annihilated, repaying their borrowed energy to the vacuum. Don't believe me? This is how flourescent lights work. Particles of mercury are excited by the transformer in the lamp, and fluctuations "bump" photons out of them.

What does this have to do with evolution? Well, it posits a well-supported theory for the existence of the universe. It suggests that particles, and even entire universes can be created with no energy, no interference, and no divine hand.

Also, it's backed up by both experimental observation, quantum mechanics, and quite a bit of tricky mathematics.

Fun stuff.
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Old 08-01-2003, 07:18 AM   #96
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Since it is hard for me to falsify you in a foreign language i'd like to quote the first law of thermodynamics:

the total energy of a system plus the surroundings is constant (Q12 + W12 = U2 - U1 + m/2(c2^2-c1^2) + mg (z2 -z1))

So if a system is in balance (is this the right english word for it?) there is no way something changes without an external energy source.

As far as i know this law wasn't proven wrong yet - also not in quantum mechanics.

Klaus
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Old 08-01-2003, 11:49 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mongpoovian
What does this have to do with evolution? Well, it posits a well-supported theory for the existence of the universe. It suggests that particles, and even entire universes can be created with no energy, no interference, and no divine hand.

Also, it's backed up by both experimental observation, quantum mechanics, and quite a bit of tricky mathematics.
Using evolution to explain the creation of the universe (without God) falls flat on its face as a mathematical impossibility.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:03 PM   #98
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Klaus,

It is totally true that the total energy of a system plus it's surroundings is constant. It is also true that if a system is at total equilibrium, there is no energy available. The system in question (the universe) is not at a balance. There is more energy some places than others. What I am saying is that the total energy in the universe, the sum of matter and energy, equals zero. Since the distribution of this energy is non-homogeneous, there is still a "useful" energy gradient nearly everywhere.

Well, I had a nice link to put here, but the messageboard has thwarted my attempts to fool it. Go to google, type in "virtual particles" and feel lucky.

Nbcrusader,

How exactly is the universe mathematically impossible without God? I've never heard of theistic mathematics...

Seriously though, I'd like to know. Enlighten a poor heathen.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:09 PM   #99
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Mongpoovian, it is not a statement on your spiritual condition.

The odds of the first cell's formation from its basic components, even given perfect conditions, is such that even if an attempted formation occurred thousands of time per second, the time it would take to create such first cell far exceeds (to the point of impossibility) the lifespan of the universe (as measured in billions of years). I do not have the exact numbers with me, but can post that later.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:24 PM   #100
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No scientist in their right mind would ever assert that life started clean off as cells. It is very true that the probability of a cell springing forth from all of the separate parts is ridiculously small. The parts of the cell, however, have been shown to be able to self-assemble without any outside help. Lipids form micelles and bilayers. RNA can self-assemble on the surface of clays. If you accept the fact that there is no firm, hard line separating life from non-life, it is easy to see that the evolution (or should I say synthesis) of a cell could easily happen in the 2 billion years that science gives it. There are self-polymerizing reactions, self-catalyzing reactions, and reactions that "compete" for resources. Why is it that the jump from that to a cellular precursor is regarded as impossible?
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:55 PM   #101
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Forming building blocks is one thing. Becoming a single cell is another. Building blocks into living cell is no easy thing - even in 2 billion years.
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:02 PM   #102
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Mongpoovian:
If the universe would work on the physical laws we know it must have a begining - if it would be here for a infinite time all mater and energy would be balanced.

And, please try to explain to me how something complex as an Eye can be created by sheer coincidence. It has to be there in a verry early stage of evolution since almost all living beings have 2 eyes. Also it is so complex (hard to believe that it was there verry early) that it is hard to imagine that all those mutations could have hapened and all the blind beings survived as the fittest on their way until they could use that eye after a few million years of evolution.

Klaus

p.s. sorry for my poor english - if it gets specific it is hard for me to find the words i want to use.
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:09 PM   #103
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And here's something else. Today, one of my best friends had a baby. Teh baby was nursing from her and I learned something. Did you know that the mother doesn't automatically start producing milk after the birth? First, she produces a syrupy pre-milk stuff, which is exactly what the baby needs at that point. Then the mother's body produces real milk, and at that point the baby can take real milk. Now is that a coincidence? I don't think so. Now, how can intricacies like that be explained in a universe that just exploped into being, without creative force behind it?
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Old 08-01-2003, 06:07 PM   #104
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The ancient Greeks had a large family of gods to explain concepts of nature that they did not understand. Lightning bolts from the heavens? Ah, Zeus. A violent, choppy sea? Must be the work of Poseidon.

Now we know what causes these natural phenomena. As our sciences have developed we have proven that things once thought to be the work of deities instead follow a very terrestrial natural law.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this. Science has consistently disproven religious teachings about nature. The Earth isn't at the center of the universe, nor is it flat. Yet this was taught by the church for centuries, even after is was disproven. What we don't understand today will be the scientific explanation of tomorrow.
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Old 08-02-2003, 02:47 AM   #105
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ThatGuy:

I understand your point verry well, but like the ancient Greeks used the Gods to explain what they can't we start to use science fiction - lots of things in the evolution theory can't be proved, some of these scientissts refuse that other scientists examine the bones they found, because they are affraid of the falsification.

So.. today science became a new manstream religion for the public

Klaus
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