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Old 07-16-2003, 01:19 PM   #46
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


here, I'm answering your questions.

It's a matter of faith - faith that God gave the truth of what happened to man; he told man what to write.
So then what about the holes? If you were to take the Bible word for word the literal historical truth how do you explain dinosaurs? How do you explain how Noah not only repopulated the earth with every single animal but also the human population? No one has ever been able to explain this to me. I don't believe it has to do with faith. I mean does faith overcome physical evidence?

Ok, so now I ask, do you believe there are no "man-made laws" that made it into the Bible? Slave laws, grooming laws, etc. these were God's laws?

I'm just asking questions, I would like for someone to try and explain, I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs.
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Old 07-16-2003, 01:19 PM   #47
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Either the Bible is God's True Word (given to human writers at whatever time God chose) or it is written by people in support of their belief in God.
Maybe this works:

Either the Bible is God's True Word (given to human writers at whatever time God chose) or it is not.

"Not" can have as many other definitions as you want.
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Old 07-16-2003, 01:22 PM   #48
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kaboom

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Originally posted by ouizy

we came from an explosion that happened a long long time ago...
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Old 07-16-2003, 04:43 PM   #49
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


here, I'm answering your questions.

It's a matter of faith - faith that God gave the truth of what happened to man; he told man what to write.
I don't understand why we have to believe that everything in the Bible is God's direct word in order to have good faith. Who stated that everything in the Bible is the literal truth anyway? Who started this? How do you explain skeletal remains and fossils of neandertals, cro-magnon and earlier human-like creatures? How do you explain the age of the earth using scientific data if through the Bible you come up with an age that flies directly in the face of cold hard scientific fact? Simply because of "faith?" How do you explain some of the old testament in which men's laws are put forth as what God intends? (slavery, extreme punishment - cutting off hands, etc)

In matters of morality and how to live your life in a good, loving and Christian way, then yes, by all means listen to the Bible, but if you're using the Bible to explain how the Earth and man came to be and are actually taking Genesis literally, then you just don't have a legitimate argument in my view.

In this day and age I would hope that reason, science and just plain facts could outweigh religious fervor in the search for truth.
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Old 07-16-2003, 05:34 PM   #50
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hes such a kidder that God

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Originally posted by Diemen
How do you explain skeletal remains and fossils of neandertals, cro-magnon and earlier human-like creatures? How do you explain the age of the earth using scientific data if through the Bible you come up with an age that flies directly in the face of cold hard scientific fact?
Godpranks?
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Old 07-16-2003, 07:38 PM   #51
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4



Of course, if you are under the impression that you are in sole possession of the truth, then I wonder why you would even bother to engage in discussion.
This coming from the person who replies to posts she doesn't agree with by saying things to the effect of "keep living in your dream world"?

I never said I am in sole possession of the truth. I never even implied that. I believe in what I believe and I'm not gonna back down from it. When you state your beliefs, I don't see you always prefacuing them with "I believe". No one does that. Of course, you'd probably have no problem with me not backing down if I held the same opinions as you.
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Old 07-16-2003, 07:45 PM   #52
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Re: hes such a kidder that God

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Godpranks?


Nice.
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:00 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Diemen
I don't understand why we have to believe that everything in the Bible is God's direct word in order to have good faith.
The question then becomes, on what basis do you accept/reject Scripture?


Remember, there are two levels here. One, is the Bible God's true Word? Two, how do you apply it?



"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:09 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


I don't understand why we have to believe that everything in the Bible is God's direct word in order to have good faith. Who stated that everything in the Bible is the literal truth anyway? (1)Who started this? (2)How do you explain skeletal remains and fossils of neandertals, cro-magnon and earlier human-like creatures? (3)How do you explain the age of the earth using scientific data if through the Bible you come up with an age that flies directly in the face of cold hard scientific fact? Simply because of "faith?" (4)How do you explain some of the old testament in which men's laws are put forth as what God intends? (slavery, extreme punishment - cutting off hands, etc)

In matters of morality and how to live your life in a good, loving and Christian way, then yes, by all means listen to the Bible, but if you're using the Bible to explain how the Earth and man came to be and are actually taking Genesis literally, then you just don't have a legitimate argument in my view.

(5)In this day and age I would hope that reason, science and just plain facts could outweigh religious fervor in the search for truth.
Hi Diemen, I hope you don't mind that I have numbered your questions. That makes it easier for me to address each.

1)I believe in the Bible because of a combination of faith and experience. The reason I believe the entire Bible rather than just part of it is because I know that if God is the Big God I think he is, he's big enough to keep his entire word together in an accurate and truthful representation, which I know as the Bible.

2)How do I explain these? I don't really need to try to explain that they aren't humans because there is no conclusive proof that they are. I think that if one is arguing for evolution, the burden rests on that person to explain the gaps in the fossil record.

3)Many scientists (who adhere to Creation science) do consider the world to be about 6 to 8,000 years old. They say that the rings in the earth and the trees are being misinterpreted by using the wrong aging standards.

4)Many laws in the Old Testament were from God and many were from man. I don't reallty understand what this has to do with anything, though.

5) That is your opinion, to which you are certainly allowed.
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So then what about the holes? If you were to take the Bible word for word the literal historical truth how do you explain dinosaurs? How do you explain how Noah not only repopulated the earth with every single animal but also the human population? No one has ever been able to explain this to me. I don't believe it has to do with faith. I mean does faith overcome physical evidence?

Ok, so now I ask, do you believe there are no "man-made laws" that made it into the Bible? Slave laws, grooming laws, etc. these were God's laws?

I'm just asking questions, I would like for someone to try and explain, I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs.
I don't need to explain away dinosaurs. Nothing in the Bible excludes the exsitence of dinosaurs. In fact, there is a reference to a great sea monster (leviathan) in the Bible that many scholars think refers to a dinosaur.

The only way I explain Noah is to say that men and women lived much longer lives back then and were able to procreate at older ages.
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:20 PM   #56
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


3)Many scientists (who adhere to Creation science) do consider the world to be about 6 to 8,000 years old. They say that the rings in the earth and the trees are being misinterpreted by using the wrong aging standards.

But this would imply that estimates of the age of certain fossils are off by a factor of around 10,000...
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:25 PM   #57
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
3)Many scientists (who adhere to Creation science) do consider the world to be about 6 to 8,000 years old. They say that the rings in the earth and the trees are being misinterpreted by using the wrong aging standards.
Rocks in the Namib desert are the oldest in the world, they are dated at 1.5 million years. I plan on standing on top of them next summer when I go to Africa.

It is not a matter of looking at rings in the earth, but at precise dating methods.

It is a virtual impossibility that scientists around the world are off by basically the entire 1.5 million years. That sort of error is simply not made by misinterpretations.

Furthermore, if you look at rates of HGT (horizontal gene transfer or lateral gene transfer) among bacteria, you can determine the point in time where different species/genera split off. This uses things like evolutionary clocks and the study of 16S rRNA. I believe Salmonella and Escherichia branched off from one another 100 million years ago. Again, it is completely against everything that these creationists stand for and against EVERYTHING that we know about the rates of genetic mutation.

I don't believe this age thing at all, it actually sounds pretty silly to me in light of all the evidence and I provided only two examples, thousands of others exist.
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Old 07-16-2003, 11:02 PM   #58
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Remember, there are two levels here. One, is the Bible God's true Word? Two, how do you apply it?
I bring out this passage a lot...

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10.

Who really *cares* about anything else? The rest of the Bible could go up in flames, and I wouldn't need it outside of this passage.

First, I should also mention that the "dust of the Earth" would probably have microscopic, single-celled organisms, if put under a microscope. Secondly, if fetuses / embryos are also made "in God's image," then you should also know that a human embryo, at a certain stage, looks identical to several species of animal, including frogs and monkeys.

I don't see the point of this thread, except for creationists to look down on evolution-believers as "non-Christian" and for evolutionists to point and laugh at creationists. How many threads have we had on this subject over the last three years?

Having grown up in a religion with no conflict between science and creation, this entire thread has been a non-issue for me. I comfortably believe in evolution and in God.

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Old 07-16-2003, 11:17 PM   #59
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
1)I believe in the Bible because of a combination of faith and experience. The reason I believe the entire Bible rather than just part of it is because I know that if God is the Big God I think he is, he's big enough to keep his entire word together in an accurate and truthful representation, which I know as the Bible.
That certainly doesn't mean that God chose to exercise that right, and I believe it is limiting of God to assign a limiting interpretation of the Bible. The Pharisees thought they had it all correct, but when Jesus came around, it proved how wrong they really were.

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2)How do I explain these? I don't really need to try to explain that they aren't humans because there is no conclusive proof that they are. I think that if one is arguing for evolution, the burden rests on that person to explain the gaps in the fossil record.
Well, if we started talking about "conclusive proof," creationism should have been thrown out the window decades ago. I'm sorry, but a 10,000 year-old world is not possible.

Quote:
3)Many scientists (who adhere to Creation science) do consider the world to be about 6 to 8,000 years old. They say that the rings in the earth and the trees are being misinterpreted by using the wrong aging standards.
That's because they are grasping for straws, in the same vein that numerology has, for a millennium, *conveniently* constructed these elaborate formulas that *always* point to the end of the world being in the near future. Rather than looking at the evidence and constructing a conclusion, "creation science" (what an oxymoron if I've ever read one) has a preset conclusion that they will construct evidence for, no matter how fantastical it is.

Regardless, no one has ever been able to explain to me how Cain was able to marry and procreate with someone who shouldn't exist after being cast out of the Garden of Eden, assuming that the present interpretation of Adam and Eve being the first family. It is my view that the "creation myths" were polytheistic in origin, and that "Adam and Eve" were the first of the "Chosen People," while "pagans" were viewed to have been created by their own respective gods.

It is also interesting how similar Judeo-Christianity is to Zoroastrianism, the Persian religion that the exilic-period Jews were exposed to under the Persian Empire. If there is one trend that seems to be pretty constant, no matter what time period or place it is, it is that religion is constantly molded by the environment it originates from. I wish we could say that religion is "consistent," but then there would be plenty of evidence to the contrary...

...so, I guess it brings me back to Romans 13. "Love is the fulfillment of the law." Does it really matter at all how we are created? Why do we concern ourselves with such triviality? The fact is that we exist *now.*

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Old 07-16-2003, 11:44 PM   #60
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The question then becomes, on what basis do you accept/reject Scripture?
I accept some scripture to be recorded history as it happened. I accept some scripture to be stories passed on from person to person for purposes of getting an idea across, similar to the parables Jesus told. Some is poetic metaphors. But all is acompassing of God. But not directly from God's mouth, hand, etc. for then I wouldn't believe it to be written by man.

I believe the humans who wrote Genesis were not capable of understanding the true complexities of the begining of life. Heck they thought the world was flat. Heck we don't even truly understand it now. Therefore I believe God used metaphors to explain it, like in so many other times in the Bible.

I could point by point go through the Bible and show how it doesn't conflict with science but it would take entirely too long. I believe the two to coincide and honestly don't understand those who can't, but this is just my view.
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