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Old 03-06-2003, 11:56 AM   #16
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It is not the end.

American troops could start thinking for themselves and lay down their weapons en masse and refuse to follow Bush into this completely wrong campaign.

In the end, history will be their judge.

And the Nuremburg defense-like psychology that seems to be popular these days won't cut it.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


(I posted this in another thread):
Many economists believe this war could have a devastating effect on the U.S. economy, which would of course affect the global economy. Our allies basically paid for the Gulf War whereas guess who has to pay for this one. The cost of a "clean" war is estimated by economists into possibly the trillions of dollars, which would far exceed any benefit incurred from increased production of Iraqi oil. Bush has not spoken much about the budget for this war.
And many economists have theorized what I wrote earlier, that it will be beneficial. Traditionally, war benefits the economy, at least in the short term.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:15 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Zooropa

And many economists have theorized what I wrote earlier, that it will be beneficial. Traditionally, war benefits the economy, at least in the short term.
And it is bullshit. That "war benefits the economy" paradigm worked during World War II, when much of industry and labor all worked together to make war materials. Yes, that helped the economy and ended the Great Depression.

However, that is no longer the case, with an economy based on market speculation, rather than hard performance figures. War will drain our stock market more, putting our fiscally irresponsible corporations in even more trouble, and it will send oil prices even higher, thanks to oil market speculators, who will see war in Iraq as time to buy.

In addition, while all of industry shifted to war production in WWII, including auto factories, for instance, it won't happen now. War supplies are made by a small group of corporations, like Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

If anything, this outlines why our economy is a joke, as structured. It is based on legalized gambling. I think it is time for some re-regulation if we wish to change that paradigm back.

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Old 03-06-2003, 12:20 PM   #19
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I can only imagine what would happen at work if I went and someone found out Maybe I'll convienently be on the Mall that day and get swept up by the crowd....
Good for you Having a job doesn't take away your right to hold political opinions and act in support of them.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:43 PM   #20
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Good for you Having a job doesn't take away your right to hold political opinions and act in support of them.
Yeah, the only problem is that when you work on the Hill you're expected to have the same opinions as your boss. I did to start out with, but after about three months of working for the government, I completely changed my views. That's why I spend every day being exceptionally bitter and trying not to snap and start throwing things in response to some of the comments I hear.... Maybe they wouldn't do anything other than hate me if they found out since I'm leaving at the end of May anyway.

Bush's address tonight should be interesting. Especially since Ari Fleisher claims the president hasn't made up his mind about war yet.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


And it is bullshit. That "war benefits the economy" paradigm worked during World War II, when much of industry and labor all worked together to make war materials. Yes, that helped the economy and ended the Great Depression.

However, that is no longer the case, with an economy based on market speculation, rather than hard performance figures. War will drain our stock market more, putting our fiscally irresponsible corporations in even more trouble, and it will send oil prices even higher, thanks to oil market speculators, who will see war in Iraq as time to buy.

If anything, this outlines why our economy is a joke, as structured. It is based on legalized gambling. I think it is time for some re-regulation if we wish to change that paradigm back.

Melon
Melon, to dismiss something as bullshit, is to imply that it has no validity. That isn't the case here. Economists are split on whether the war will benefit the US economy, and there is compelling evidence to support both sides. However, most economists feel that a short will benefit the US economy, not harm it. The concern is over what a long-term war would do for the economy.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:56 PM   #22
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"War" will not benefit the economy. "After the war," especially if it is short, is another story.

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Old 03-06-2003, 01:00 PM   #23
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So apparently British troops have been told that an invasion will begin on March 17, with a HUGE bombing campaign four days earlier.
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:17 PM   #24
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Melon,
I'm curious. Earlier you alluded to more regulation being neccesary in order to protect/reform our economy. If referring to government regulation, how does this sit regarding an earlier debate over the liberal paradigm, in which you use it to defend your belief that the Patriot act is a voilation of our liberties? After all, the liberal paradigm, in its original form, would have equally appalled by the government's intrusion into the economy.
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by meegannie
So apparently British troops have been told that an invasion will begin on March 17, with a HUGE bombing campaign four days earlier.

Is this official? I have to go to some little joint near New Orleans next week for a teaching assignment and am frantically getting my class stuff together now. It's tough to get newspapers and such in that place. I guess I'll leave the place a week from Sunday and "War in Iraq" is going to be in the first newspaper I see when I get into a city.
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa
Melon,
I'm curious. Earlier you alluded to more regulation being neccesary in order to protect/reform our economy. If referring to government regulation, how does this sit regarding an earlier debate over the liberal paradigm, in which you use it to defend your belief that the Patriot act is a voilation of our liberties? After all, the liberal paradigm, in its original form, would have equally appalled by the government's intrusion into the economy.
I make no secret of it. I think laissez-faire capitalism is a disaster, and there is a reason why there was regulation put in during the early 20th century. All of this deregulation is rehashing problems that arose in the late 19th century, such as massive wealth stratification, monopolistic behavior, unstable business practices, and labor abuse.

James Madison, who wrote the Constitution, said that it was written assuming that there would always be an implicit set of ethics that people would follow. As you can see, Madison, while being idealistic, was short-sighted, and we all now know that law requires detailing everything to the last letter. "Classical liberalism" and the Founding Fathers, unfortunately, did not survive to see Marxist criticism and Keynesian capitalism. I have a feeling they would have changed their minds.

Ironically, with the rise of the religious right, ethics went out the window, so regulation was all the more important--but they took care of those as well.

We can all agree that greed is the motivator in society for everything; and, with that, regulations need to be put in place to prevent the greedy from doing things that run contrary to the common good.

We talk about "pro-life," but guess what? I value life even after the fetus becomes born. I can't say the same for most "pro-lifers," who abuse the term to legislate their moralistic prejudices.

Melon
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:42 PM   #27
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The russians have started removing their citizens. I would say watch for when the UN inspectors leave and add about 72 hours to that.
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
It is not the end.

American troops could start thinking for themselves and lay down their weapons en masse and refuse to follow Bush into this completely wrong campaign.

In the end, history will be their judge.

And the Nuremburg defense-like psychology that seems to be popular these days won't cut it.
Wrong in your opinion. In my opinion, it is right, but our President has bungled the situation. That said, his blowing it or not does not change the fact that this situation needs to be resolved.
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I make no secret of it. I think laissez-faire capitalism is a disaster, and there is a reason why there was regulation put in during the early 20th century. All of this deregulation is rehashing problems that arose in the late 19th century, such as massive wealth stratification, monopolistic behavior, unstable business practices, and labor abuse.

James Madison, who wrote the Constitution, said that it was written assuming that there would always be an implicit set of ethics that people would follow. As you can see, Madison, while being idealistic, was short-sighted, and we all now know that law requires detailing everything to the last letter. "Classical liberalism" and the Founding Fathers, unfortunately, did not survive to see Marxist criticism and Keynesian capitalism. I have a feeling they would have changed their minds.

Ironically, with the rise of the religious right, ethics went out the window, so regulation was all the more important--but they took care of those as well.

We can all agree that greed is the motivator in society for everything; and, with that, regulations need to be put in place to prevent the greedy from doing things that run contrary to the common good.

We talk about "pro-life," but guess what? I value life even after the fetus becomes born. I can't say the same for most "pro-lifers," who abuse the term to legislate their moralistic prejudices.

Melon
I agree that regulation is neccesary. But you didn't answer my question. How is govt interference in the economy, different from govt interference in our private lives?
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Old 03-06-2003, 01:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa


I agree that regulation is neccesary. But you didn't answer my question. How is govt interference in the economy, different from govt interference in our private lives?
Business is a dead head, and private citizens are living. You can run away from business, but you can't run away from domestic espionage.

FYI...

Conservatism -- business freedom, social control
Liberalism -- business control, social freedom
Libertarianism -- business freedom, social freedom
Totalitarianism -- business control, social control

Melon
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