Could this be the END Times as we know it?

[z edge]

Okay so it's 3am here so that may explain a little. Outside we are having a bad winter storm with ice/sleet and strong winds right now and snow on the way. Did I just hear thunder, yes I did. Yesterday it was in the 50's, right now its below zero with wind chill.

Theres the strange and unusual weather we hear of.

What about "wars and rumors of wars", okay we got that one covered too.

I always hear that the same generation alive when Israel becomes a nation will witness the 2nd coming of Christ. Hmmmm, I wonder how they define generation considering people lived to be 800 years old too. I've also heard of the phrophecised fire-breathing dragons in the desert as being M1-Abrahms tanks.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Am I too far out there for my own good with this? And would we really want to know? Does Iraq launch an attack on Israel? And who is the anti-christ, certainly he is poised and aware of who and what he is. Does he not know he will be defeated though? Can't he read the Bible for gosh sakes?


And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
-Revelations 6:8

And I should mention that the KKK (Klu KLux Klan) was given permission/permit to protest outside of a "gay" church, or a church that caters to GLBT folks here in Oklahoma City.

Bastards

I'm not stating an arguement here, rather I wish to hear your opinions which I hold in high regards.

 

[]{arao]{e]

Originally posted by z edge:
Hmmmm, I wonder how they define generation considering people lived to be 800 years old too.

The generation thing has been brought up before in things I've read. Here's an excerpt from an encyclopedia I have:

"... A generation may mean a class of persons, that is, those characterized by certain qualities or conditions. The Bible speaks of "the generation of the righteous one" (Ps 14:5; 24:6; 112:2) and "a generation crooked and twisted," "a generation of perverseness." (De 32:5, 20; Pr 30:11-14) Jesus Christ, when on earth, spoke similarly of the people of the Jewish nation of that day, and the apostle Paul applied such terms to the world of his day in general, which was alienated from God.-Mt 12:39; 16:4; 17:17; Mr 8:38; Php 2:14, 15.

...
"This Generation" of Christ's Prophecies. When Bible prophecy speaks of "this generation," it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: "Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation." History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.-Mt 23:36.

Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. Before his reference to "this generation," however, he had focused his remarks specifically on his "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and the nearness of the Kingdom of God. Immediately afterward, he continued with references to his "presence." (Mt 24:30, 37, 39; Lu 21:27, 31) Jesus was using the word "generation" with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events.-Mt 24.

The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure-international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined in Matthew chapter 24, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21."

If you want more info about this encyclopedia...email me at raincoat_98@yahoo.com and I can get you a copy.


After reading Matthew it's very obvious it's the End Times. I'm glad you've studied it so well!!


[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-02-2002).]

 

[z edge]

Thank you for your compliment, I wouldn't say that I've studied it that well though LOL! I am a firm believer, yet I tend to lapse into the shadows a bit like, well most everyone I guess if not a little bit more.

And yes, the occourences of earthquakes has significantly increased every decade since the last century, they are almost common now. Here in Oklahoma city area, besides the Murrah bombing in 95 we had the may 3rd tornado that devestated the most populated area of our city and ran .5 to 1 mile wide and went almost 100 miles (that may be an exaggeration as far as the miles it traveled).

And thanks again for your post and comments

 

[z edge]

Sorry this is just unreal, it has been sleeting real bad and we are predicted 4 inches of snow and everything is frozen, and not only is it thundering but now there is also lightning.

 

[]{arao]{e]

K...well...it's really quiet here. I kinda envy you...in a weird way.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

we had some thunderstorms here that leveled a lot of the trees. my place had no power for like 3 days!!

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Brother Edge-
Ive been wondering the same thing boss.

db9

 

[LadyBonoMan]

Rev, 8:10-11
"And the third angel sounded, and there fell from heaven a great star, burning as a torch, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."


Maybe this is common knowledge to all of you, but apperently Wormwood is called "Chernobyl" in russian...

 

[melon]

Not to be nitpicking, but ]{arao]{e is a Jehovah's Witness. As such, the beliefs of this religion on the Bible widely differ from much of Christianity. Just a thing to keep in mind.

My beliefs on the end times do not stem from the Bible. It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!

Secondly, what I've learned from the apparitions, is that the "end times" are not fixed. Through prayer and reconciliation, we can change what happens to us. In fact, if the apparitions are correct, the curse of World War III was lifted from us by God, due to the prayers and conversion in the 1990s. Although events have been prescribed, we still have the choice on whether they occur.

What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope, and that the next Pope will coincide with the appearance of the Anti-Christ (to clarify, the next elected Pope is to die before coronation, and his killer is supposed to assume the Papacy). To be clear, the Pope will not be the Anti-Christ. They are two separate individuals. 2/3 of the world is supposed to fall for this on top of it.

In addition, the "end" and the Last Judgment are two separate events. The "end" will be like the passing away of the old world and the birth of the new in Revelation. Basically, a huge purification, restoring the world to a state of paradise and purity. The "Last Judgment" is not to occur until much much later, perhaps decades and centuries.

Regardless, with the anti-Christ, the only way I can see that 2/3 scenario happening is if they appeal to conservative sensibilities to the far extreme. Basically, one big tent revival. Of course, conservative Catholics want to paint it as a liberal Pope, but, considering that all the eligible voting cardinals are conservative or more conservative than the current Pope, I highly doubt it. Of course, no one listens to me anyway...

Regardless, I would not worry about the "end times." They've been predicted since the Crusades. If they are meant to happen, then they are meant to happen. If the apparitions are any guide, God changes his mind a lot on "when" out of mercy for us. If you are truly concerned about the end times, I would pray for peace and the conversion of the hearts of the world.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-02-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'm from Dallas, and this morning at 4 am, I was awake hearing the storm, also!

I do believe we are in the end times. In fact, just last night, I sat with my friend watching Megiddo. We discussed the end times. I told her that I'm not surprised that people will fall into this "one world government" thing, as I see in political discussions all the time that people are being readied and are quite open to globalization ideas.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 03-02-2002).]

 

[z edge]

80's
I'm not familiar with that film/show you mention?

As far as a one-world government, haven't people always been weary of the United Nations to some extent keeping that in mind?

I heard something alarming recently about a microchip that can be implanted under your skin for identification purposes. SO am I to assume that terroist's and terror attacks could pushing us in this direction (one more good reason to rid them)?

Lastly, I am going to start working with the DOD (department of defense) in a little over a week, so I have a little concern about "microchips".

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
Not to be nitpicking, but ]{arao]{e is a Jehovah's Witness. As such, the beliefs of this religion on the Bible widely differ from much of Christianity. Just a thing to keep in mind.

My beliefs on the end times do not stem from the Bible. It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!

Secondly, what I've learned from the apparitions, is that the "end times" are not fixed. Through prayer and reconciliation, we can change what happens to us. In fact, if the apparitions are correct, the curse of World War III was lifted from us by God, due to the prayers and conversion in the 1990s. Although events have been prescribed, we still have the choice on whether they occur.

What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope, and that the next Pope will coincide with the appearance of the Anti-Christ (to clarify, the next elected Pope is to die before coronation, and his killer is supposed to assume the Papacy). To be clear, the Pope will not be the Anti-Christ. They are two separate individuals. 2/3 of the world is supposed to fall for this on top of it.

In addition, the "end" and the Last Judgment are two separate events. The "end" will be like the passing away of the old world and the birth of the new in Revelation. Basically, a huge purification, restoring the world to a state of paradise and purity. The "Last Judgment" is not to occur until much much later, perhaps decades and centuries.

Regardless, with the anti-Christ, the only way I can see that 2/3 scenario happening is if they appeal to conservative sensibilities to the far extreme. Basically, one big tent revival. Of course, conservative Catholics want to paint it as a liberal Pope, but, considering that all the eligible voting cardinals are conservative or more conservative than the current Pope, I highly doubt it. Of course, no one listens to me anyway...

Regardless, I would not worry about the "end times." They've been predicted since the Crusades. If they are meant to happen, then they are meant to happen. If the apparitions are any guide, God changes his mind a lot on "when" out of mercy for us. If you are truly concerned about the end times, I would pray for peace and the conversion of the hearts of the world.

Melon

WoW Melon, as usual, you provide something very different and unique to the discussion which I gladly welcome

I am not familiar with this belief and it sounds as though we are cut a lot of slack, even though in the old testament they weren't given that much at all in comparison. As far as the Pope passing away, I wouldn't expect him to live forever either. It's sad to say, but every time you see the guy on tv you can't help but notice his failing appearance.

So if we prayed away and did enough good deads to defer WWIII in the 90's, does this mean we are again poised? I keep fearing that Iraq will attack Israel, and that everything will go nuts after that. I am also afraid, even though I whole-heartedly support Bush and this current war, that something could lead to nuclear weapons.

I've yet to hear any of the phrocephies regarding to 9/11. It is interesting how so many have blamed the Jews for this attack, and pretty intersting how some hate the Jews so much and us for being "infidels" and supporting Israel.

I'm straying off topic a bit I guess, but this must all come in to play. My army chaplain and friend told me back in 1996 that he believed the antichrist was alive and well, he didn't have any predictions as to who he might be though

 

[melon]

Originally posted by z edge:
WoW Melon, as usual, you provide something very different and unique to the discussion which I gladly welcome

Knowledge was once my drug to cover up sorrow. I was sad a lot when I was younger.

I am not familiar with this belief and it sounds as though we are cut a lot of slack, even though in the old testament they weren't given that much at all in comparison. As far as the Pope passing away, I wouldn't expect him to live forever either. It's sad to say, but every time you see the guy on tv you can't help but notice his failing appearance.

What is in the current Pope's favor is the fact that Parkinson's Disease is not fatal in itself. Of course, it looks disastrous, but that is what happens upon complete absence of dopamine from the brain. Parkinson's patients are given L-Dopa initially, which is converted into dopamine by cells in the brain. Hence, they have no symptoms. However, for some reason, in time, those converter cells die off, and L-Dopa is useless. What is sick is that there are methods to create pure dopamine to deliver to these patients, but it is not considered "cost effective" to the pharmaceutical industry.

Regardless, despite his physical frailties, he could easily live another decade.

So if we prayed away and did enough good deads to defer WWIII in the 90's, does this mean we are again poised? I keep fearing that Iraq will attack Israel, and that everything will go nuts after that. I am also afraid, even though I whole-heartedly support Bush and this current war, that something could lead to nuclear weapons.

World War III is officially and forever forgiven. God's mercy is one way in that He won't make things worse on us. We could easily have more forgiven, but most of us do not pray enough. Even I am guilty of that. We do not seem to understand the power of prayer. It is like a petition to God, and the more that people pray, the more strength that petition has. It is like collecting signatures on a paper petition. One signature has little impact, but millions have strength.

I've yet to hear any of the phrocephies regarding to 9/11. It is interesting how so many have blamed the Jews for this attack, and pretty intersting how some hate the Jews so much and us for being "infidels" and supporting Israel.

There are many here who are leading us astray, and I blame that mostly on most of our adherences to old prophesies regarding the Second Coming, much like the Pharisees did with Jesus' first arrival. It was nothing as they had expected, and, hence, they rejected Him. Will we do the same for the Second Coming? Human nature is sadly quite predictable, and God is not simply some fixed and immovable Being.

I do not believe in predestination. I believe that God may, in fact, know what will happen on the basis of what we currently do now, but we are so unpredictable that we constantly change what the future will ultimately be.

I'm straying off topic a bit I guess, but this must all come in to play. My army chaplain and friend told me back in 1996 that he believed the antichrist was alive and well, he didn't have any predictions as to who he might be though

Well, if the anti-Christ was, indeed, human, he will have to be born and grow up. He may very well be walking amongst us, even as we speak. The predictions are that it will be a mirror of Christ's ministry on Earth: starts at age 30 and lasts for three years. Of course, it is simply a mockery. Whomever stated that evil didn't have a sense of irony?

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[z edge]

Melon,
One thing I have learned from you in the past year is that you stand by your point and stick with your beliefs, and I commend you for that.

In this thread, I have no disagreement with you as of now and I am wanting to learn more about our destiny here. I will say, as much as I stray in life I am a believer in the word of God. I sense that you are as well, and you bring up some interesting points to counter traditional teachings, yet bringing in the same outcome I think?

I believe you once called me a "social liberal" and I don't remember the rest of what you called me. But I find it funny that we can agree on topics like the one going now by Johnny Swallow and some in the past on that subject and possibly this one, yet be so far apart when it comes to politics (G.W. Bush)

I sympathize with you being sad as a child, as was I. The truth is that a sad child can make a glad adult, given the right circumstances. I for one am proof. I almost lost my mother to lopus at an early age, and dealt with her illness my whole childhood. Thank God she is still here today, but it was never easy for our family regardless of how "charmed" our appearances were. I feel that in your group of friends they look at you for guidance, and you are intregal to their growth with your knowledge and leadership.

Back to the topic, my friend says that God's gonna flush the toilet soon. Do I see it as THAT bad really, and am I really looking?

God Bless,
Brother Melon

[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 03-03-2002).]

 

[foray]

Originally posted by melon:
It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!
What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope

melon,

I'm curious why you believe the words of an apparition instead of Jesus (who said, 'No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' - Matthew 24:36). Do you believe that Jesus did not in fact speak those words? That he changed his mind?

foray


------------------
so bounce, basketball, bounce

 

[Angela Harlem]

melon you mentioned apparitions once before and I was going to ask you, do you believe in them? And not just that they 'are', but that they send messages as well? Anyone else too, fors and z edge.

 

[foray]

Well, this is my understanding of an apparition. We call them apparitions because we don't know exactly what they are. 'Apparition' itself is a vague term meaning something like a vision but doesn't convey whether it is something real or not.

Anyway, I tend to the belief that there are devils/spirits who assume the form of people (among other things) in order to deceive or frighten us. This is why I don't believe in ghosts (the popular definition of a ghost) anymore.

foray

------------------
so bounce, basketball, bounce

 

[melon]

Originally posted by foray:
I'm curious why you believe the words of an apparition instead of Jesus (who said, 'No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' - Matthew 24:36). Do you believe that Jesus did not in fact speak those words? That he changed his mind?

This is not contradicted. Mary states that anyone who claims to know the exact date/time, God will purposely change the date if He has to to prove them wrong, and even she does not know the exact day/hour. The only exceptions are that such knowledge has been given only to a couple people, one of whom is never allowed to tell and one who is allowed to tell only eight days beforehand, as to allow us a brief time for quick repentance.

Once again, you risk having the faith of a Pharisee, whose narrow interpretation of the Bible blinded them of the Messiah directly in front of them. Either way, the "end" does not concern me. If it happens in my lifetime, I'm ready. If it doesn't happen for another millennium, I'm certainly unphased by it.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[melon]

Originally posted by foray:
Well, this is my understanding of an apparition. We call them apparitions because we don't know exactly what they are. 'Apparition' itself is a vague term meaning something like a vision but doesn't convey whether it is something real or not.

Semantics...

Does it not say that, before the end, that people will see visions? I think this was in Revelation, but I cannot seem to find the appropriate passages.

Anyway, I tend to the belief that there are devils/spirits who assume the form of people (among other things) in order to deceive or frighten us. This is why I don't believe in ghosts (the popular definition of a ghost) anymore.

In that case, I think Pat Robertson is a "ghost."

Anyway, these apparitions are reassuring, not scary.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[Anthony]

I don't believe in apparitions, and I don't see why a One World government is something to be feared about.

Apparitions have always been ubiquitous, and more often than not, modern science and logic can explain the invisible strings behind the puppetry, and when the apparitions have been too fantastical for explanation, it is almost too easy to simply say that the one who had the apparition is a liar, or self-deluded.

Notice how most Christian apparitions take place in either extremely Catholic places or relatively poor countries; in Mexico where I visit my Mexican branch of the family the cities are littered with apparitions from people; who is one to believe, and why should one believe it?

If there is anything to believe in, one may as well inspect the literature echoing the sentiments of the Bible, whether pyschological or poetical, such as W.B. YEats, whose poetry you can NOT escape from without having to read pages-full about the Second Coming, and the apocalypse. Yeats also explored this idea of the 'spinning gyres', that we are constantly in a complex cycle reaching troughs and peaks, and according to his calculations, we are about to reach the all time low, or trough, as it were, before climbing up to the highest peak.

However, it is not something novel. So many versions and so many predictions have made me indifferent to the 'End Times', there is simply too many people to believe in, and so many people say so many different things. The one common factor is that something bad will happen, and you don't need a prophet to tell you that; bad things happen all the time, and some even go on to change the world. Put your trust in sound logic echoed by reason, and not some publicized prediction that the Media circus has had a recent lech on.

As for the question of faith, I find the coming of the Anti-Christ both an occasion worthy of anticipation and keen interest. And why not? It proposes so many different factors one almost is lost in a flurrish of intellectual activity. It also proposes change and progress. Advancement in the long term, is always a good thing.

It is hard for me, I must confess, to believe in the Anti-Christ in the conventional way, for I don't believe in the devil. I don't believe in Satan as I don't believe in Angels and what have you - I believe in God and all that God encompasses, the good and the bad. I believe that there is such a thing as a right and a wrong, that there is Evil to be challenged, for the survival of Mankind, but this Evil is not as clear-cut and defined as 'The One sent By Satan', I think that 'Evil' is never as simple as that; for us to stare at Evil in the face, we need nothing further to do than to look at the mirror and have one long dark tea-time with the soul, as Douglas Adams would say. Vice and virtue go hand in hand like darkness and light, as well as Good and Evil, and God is ultimately the unifying factor of such contradictions. I belive that God's proof of power and existence is the ability to overcome such contradictions.

One could consider Hitler to be the anti-christ, withi his awesome oratory abilities, his magnetic charisma, his fierce passion and his greatness. Oh, he comitted great evil, there's no doubt about that, but he was also great. I believe, however, that in this age of technology and terrorism, behind the scenes warfare and conspiracy theories, the next 'anti-christ' will be much more covert, much more secretive, so much so we may never know he (or she) was here.

Ultimately, I believe that some nasty stuff is ahead of us, and we should be prepared for it. However, don't put your faith too blindly into superstitions, apparitions and religion even, not because they are fundamentally wrong, but because the picture they paint may not be the truthful one. Believing too much in what has yet to happen may prevent you from realising that the 'end times' is indeed occuring. One thing most prophecies leave out is that the Apocalypse may be a subtle thing.

Ant.

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 03-03-2002).]

 

[melon]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
melon you mentioned apparitions once before and I was going to ask you, do you believe in them? And not just that they 'are', but that they send messages as well? Anyone else too, fors and z edge.

I do not know exactly. Mary does only appear to Catholics; however, she also stated that she will only appear to those who believe. Since Protestants generally refuse to believe, she doesn't appear to them.

Anyway, it is too late to book an appearance. She states that Medjugorje, the most common place for activity, is her last place. Once she disappears for good from here, she states that the end is only a very very short time afterwards. Currently, she still appears monthly.

To set the record, Catholicism has only approved two apparition sites as "authentic" and worthy of total belief, and that is Fatima (1917) and Guadalupe (back in the 1500s). The rest are still under investigation, including Medjugorje.

Regardless, authentic or not, the knowledge I have learned from them I find comforting. The idea of prayer, repentance, and love are ideas that I don't think Christians would dispute.

And I have not put so much faith into them that my faith in God would be shattered if all were proven to be wrong. We have to be mindful that people have been predicting "the end" repeatedly since the Crusades. With holy wars (1100-1300) and corrupt popes (Middle Ages) and a wholly worldly hierachy (Middle Ages), along with the Bubonic Plague (1300s) and almost incessant wars until the end of World War II, you can easily see why the world was far worse for them than it is for us.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-03-2002).]

 

[z edge]

Anthony,
I respect your right to opinion and you choice of religion. I am curious to what religion you believe, I'm not sure if I caught that or if you even stated it. I know christianity dosen't encourage/allow people to pick and choose the parts that are convienent to them and discard the rest.

I'm not saying that you are doing that, I commented because I am not sure what religion you are mentioning or from what basis.

[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 03-03-2002).]

 

[Anthony]

z edge;

I don't have a religion, to be perfectly frank. When I am asked what religion I follow, I say that I'm not religious, but spiritual - to use the cliche.

I was educated and raised (for a large part of my life) in an all Boys Catholic Boarding School and a Roman Catholic Convent, hence I was raised a Catholic.

However, I also lived in various parts of the world and spent a good portion of my life in the Middle East, and was subjected to some other religions, one day it just came to me that they all said the same thing; they were and are all the same.

That's not to say that I lost faith in them, I didn't - I respect and love Jesus Christ as much as I respect and love the Prophet Mohammed, however I could not commit to one religion at all, none of them answered my own questions, none of them fulfilled me.

Now, I dedicate a lot of my time with Stoic philosophy and certain Yoga practices, with particular meditation; what I am essentially trying to do is combine all the religions and unify them in what they say, instead of distinguishing between them.

Anyway, my spirituality is far more complicated than my religion (which is non-existant); I have no religion except the religion of loving God through loving Humanity. I believe that to find God we need to love and be loved, unconditionally.

Anyway, thats a rap.

Ant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I believe that to find God we need to love and be loved, unconditionally.

Anyway, thats a rap.

Ant. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Anthony,
The good news is that God does love us unconditionally. And if we just accept his free gift of salvation, we become his children. It's free for teh taking. All you have to do is ask.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Hi Anthony,
The good news is that God does love us unconditionally. And if we just accept his free gift of salvation, we become his children. It's free for teh taking. All you have to do is ask.

Thank you 80s. I do know that God loves us unconditionally, I do know that that is Its free gift of salvation, and I do know that we are Its children.

Yes, all we have to do is but to ask, however, where we differ is that in order to not only become Its children, to live in grace, we need to do more than just 'ask' and seek salvation in a confession box. It is all very well to confess your sins and repent truly and then commit it all over again, however, what about you as a human being? What about perfection? Jesus once asked us to be perfect, and I believe that the whole point of Life is to become perfect, to find union with God.

I am sorry, but confessing to a stranger and then being absolved of all sin is not only too convenient and easy, but it lacks the discipline human beings deserve in order to achieve perfection.

Having said that, God DOES love us unconditionally. However, God and Love were never the problem, Humans were. Life doesn't change God, it changes Humanity.

Ant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Thank you 80s. I do know that God loves us unconditionally, I do know that that is Its free gift of salvation, and I do know that we are Its children.

we need to do more than just 'ask' and seek salvation in a confession box. It is all very well to confess your sins and repent truly and then commit it all over again, however, what about you as a human being? What about perfection? Jesus once asked us to be perfect, and I believe that the whole point of Life is to become perfect, to find union with God.

I am sorry, but confessing to a stranger and then being absolved of all sin is not only too convenient and easy, but it lacks the discipline human beings deserve in order to achieve perfection.

Having said that, God DOES love us unconditionally. However, God and Love were never the problem, Humans were. Life doesn't change God, it changes Humanity.
Ant.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't confess my sins to man. I confess them straight to God's ear.

Salvation is a perfectly free gift. It has to be free, because I could never be "good enough" to earn it. That's teh entire point of the cross. The cost of sin is death. The only way for man to be free of this debt is for a perfect man to die for the rest. That's what Christ did. his perfect blood paid the price for my sin. And once I accepted that gift, I was forgiven. Not just for my sins before that point, but the Bible makes it clear that teh forgiveness is for sins past, present, and future. Now that I have Jesus in my heart, my sins are forgiven even before I ask.
So does that mean that I am free to do whatever I want, simply because I am forgiven? God forbid! Rather, because I am forgiven, because I am "born again" (Jesus'
words, not just mine), the Holy Spirit has entered into me and I now have his power to resist temptation, and the responsibility to rely on his power, rather than relying on my own strength. My power is useless. It is only His power that saves. it is only His power that is victorious.
You wite about the "discipline" humans need to achieve perfection. But the Bible makes it clear that humans don't have any discipline to achieve perfection. It's just not there. Rather, God wants us to rely completely on Himself and His righteousness. For, as the Bible says, our righteousness "is as dirty rags", but the righteousness he gives to us when we give him control is perfect.
The perfection Jesus speaks of is the exacty opposite of "human discipline". It is the fact that through God's grace, He gives us His spirit. The Bible says that when you become a Christian, you are a "new creation". It tells us that the "sin nature" is "crucified with Christ". Does that mean that we no longer sin? No, because we indulge in the desires of the flesh (which is tempted by the Devil). But our spirit, which is who we really are, is made new when we become Christians. That's where the struggle comes in - where the spirit (that desires only the good and perfect will of God) is in conflict with the desires of the imperfect flesh (which is being lied to by Satan, being told that we want to disobey God).

 

[Discoteque]

80s...

 

[foray]

Once again, you risk having the faith of a Pharisee, whose narrow interpretation of the Bible blinded them of the Messiah directly in front of them. Either way, the "end" does not concern me. If it happens in my lifetime, I'm ready. If it doesn't happen for another millennium, I'm certainly unphased by it.

Fair enough; I was a little offended you said that but it is true what you say (that it's easy to be like a Pharisee). However, I don't think that asking you to elaborate on your opinion shows that I plan to keep my 'narrow interpretation' of Scripture. Gimme some credit eh, melon? <g>

I myself don't put much thought into the endtimes any more; if it happens it happens. I was only concerned because your post about the end time prophecies by those people you mentioned seemed to invoke more fear/alarm than anything else. I didn't want z edge or anyone to get freaked because of it, because the fact remains that we do not know when the endtimes will happen.

I dunno who Pat Robertson is.

foray

------------------
so bounce, basketball, bounce

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

And Jesus is a Republican.

db9

 

[]{arao]{e]

Thanks, Melon for identifying where the information comes from that I published. It just goes to show Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their study of the Holy Scriptures.

It seems to me that you've managed to lead the conversation into an entirely NEW thread AGAIN.

I thought z edge was looking for some evidence that this was the END TIMES as recorded in the Bible. Matthew chapter 24 has a really clear outline of what he's talking about.

I'm personally amazed at the fact there is STILL a group left on earth that does carry out Matthew 24:14 and therefore fulfills prophecy. Considering all the atrocities done to Christians throughout the ages who simply wanted to just read the bible and do what it says.

Z-Edge...the point you made about the Chaplain telling you about the Antichrist being alive today is absolutely true. He of all people should know because the Pope is an antichrist..and that's why he was hesitant in telling you WHO it was...if he really wanted to know WHO it was ;o). The definition of antichrist is this:

Antichrist means against or instead of Christ. The term applies to all who deny what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, all who oppose his Kingdom, and all who mistreat his followers. It also includes individuals, organizations, and nations that falsely claim to represent Christ or that improperly ascribe to themselves the role of Messiah.

Think about this the next time your Chaplain blesses your efforts for war. Think about this the next time the Pope apologizes for all the detestable things the members of his church and those in alliance with it have done to people...little boys too.

1 John 2:18: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."



[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-03-2002).]