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Old 03-03-2006, 05:38 PM   #46
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The poor are rarely the leaders of revolutions.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Or from Appalachia. Or from the Bayou. Etc.
How many people are dying from extreme poverty, treatable disease or violence in those areas?
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:13 PM   #48
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The poor are rarely the leaders of revolutions.
That's right. How can they be? They have no resources until someone puts a gun in their hands and says fight...or else.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:16 PM   #49
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It may be a serious mistake to unduly project motivation upon groups, Islamist groups like Hizb-ut Tahir have very little to do with social justice.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:31 PM   #50
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It may be a serious mistake to unduly project motivation upon groups, Islamist groups like Hizb-ut Tahir have very little to do with social justice.
Am I unduly projecting motivation on a group? I'm not even sure what you mean by that.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:32 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Am I unduly projecting motivation on a group? I'm not even sure what you mean by that.


you are saying that terrorism is an attempt to recitfy economic inequalities, misguided though it might be.

hence, projecting motivation upon Hamas, Al-Qaeda, the insurgency, etc.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:36 PM   #52
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And when you make that mistake you can be easily manipulated, I just think of the example I see at uni where posters from the supposedly progressive socialists are siding with the reactionary forces of Islamic fundamentalism against what they see as the greater evil in the US and Israel.

Groups like Hizb-ut Tahir are experts in sending message of religious totalitarianism in a package of social justifce and anti-imperialism.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:36 PM   #53
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There are several large, elegantly designed, and very persuasive studies arguing that the geographic pattern of Hindu-Muslim riots in India--which almost always occur in the same small handful of areas, despite widespread dispersion of both groups throughout the country--cannot be convincingly (i.e. consistently) linked to greatest local impoverishment, greatest local activity by hardline sectarian groups, or even greatest concentrations of Muslims in majority-Hindu areas (or vice versa). Rather, the strongest link seems to be to level of civic engagement between the two groups--do they live in wholly separate, ghettoized parallel universes, or do they freely mix and mingle in each other's shops, union chapters, political party headquarters and schools? These studies, along with my own personal experiences documenting the political apathy which prevails among inhabitants of Mumbai's worst slum (the world's largest), and numerous painfully poor villagers in various other cheek-by-jowl-populous regions, have led me to rethink some of my own initial assumptions about the demographic factors most relevant to communal violence. (And when I say "riots," I'm talking setting buildings on fire, gang-raping women, and beating people with metal pipes and sticks--stuff anyone can do; no guns or Semtex required.)

It's just one country, and I can't claim real expertise about conditions anywhere else, but I do see an awful lot that seems to support these conclusions in my daily perusal of the international headlines. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have absolutely no doubt that economic inequality (whether in desperately poor countries or far better off ones) is a potent aggravant of other violence-conducive grievances. But I am very skeptical that it can be reduced to the master root cause of all violence. Often it comes to be perceived as a far greater aggravant than it had been originally once the slide towards communal polarization begins. I do not say "always"--there are situations where economic inequality alone does indeed seem to explain the origin of a conflict pretty handily. But that is not the majority of cases.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:09 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

you are saying that terrorism is an attempt to recitfy economic inequalities, misguided though it might be.
Actually, what I've been saying is that terrorism is an attempt to rectify inequalities, one of which at a basic level is economic.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And when you make that mistake you can be easily manipulated, I just think of the example I see at uni where posters from the supposedly progressive socialists are siding with the reactionary forces of Islamic fundamentalism against what they see as the greater evil in the US and Israel.

Groups like Hizb-ut Tahir are experts in sending message of religious totalitarianism in a package of social justifce and anti-imperialism.
This has a familiar ring to it...oh yeah, don't use your brain to objectively analyze an issue because you may be manipulated to come to the wrong conclusion.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:47 PM   #56
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That is not what I am saying at all, objectively look at the manifesto of Islamist terror groups, political organisations and spiritual leaders. You make some broad statement that this is just a reaction to inequality, it places the burden of responsibility strictly upon the western world. That has a very familiar ring to it and that is of Hizb-ut Tahir, an Islamist political group that advocates Islamic government over the entire world and couches itself in the language of social justice.

Advocacy of Empire though the restoration of the caliphate, supression of rights (extending to full denial through execution) for those who do not subscribe to belief in their monotheistic God (Christians and Jews may be able to live as protected persons), removal of common law with replacement by Sharia is not rectification of inequality, it is establishing power and dominance.

Just because they oppose neo-liberals does not make them any less authoritarian. The will to power is the driving force behind these groups and their demagogic leaders, violence is the means to driving their opponents into submission.

I cannot see how inequality through Islamist revivalism is a way to rectify inequality in the world today.
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:49 PM   #57
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I think it goes both ways.
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Old 03-04-2006, 12:27 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Harry Vest
I think it goes both ways.
It does. And the difference is one side observes the rules of engagment (well, mostly) and the other doesn't.
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