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Old 03-02-2006, 01:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

What freedom was sought when the planes hit the World Trade Center?

Please show me where perpetrators of terrorism are seeking freedom.
al-Quaida seeks to create and control a united Islamic caliphate that is "free" from all western influence, interference and control.

9/11 was just the beginning of attempting to create insecurity in the west and uniting the muslim world. The targets being global symbols of economic and political power.

The more momentum that can be gained from muslims feeling marginalized and oppressed by the west (sanctions, wars...resulting in economic desperation yet depicted as hatred...cartoons...), the more power and control al-Quaida gains to achieve their united "freedom".
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:57 AM   #32
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No reaction...hmmm, ok.

Well more specifically, Bin Laden will use Iraq. A war-torn, unstable country with a ravaged economy is a ripe recruiting ground for disillusioned, desperately poor people with few real choices.
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Well more specifically, Bin Laden will use Iraq. A war-torn, unstable country with a ravaged economy is a ripe recruiting ground for disillusioned, desperately poor people with few real choices.


by global standards, Iraq is not desperately poor.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
///

al-Quaida seeks to create and control a united Islamic caliphate that is "free" from all western influence, interference and control.

9/11 was just the beginning of attempting to create insecurity in the west and uniting the muslim world. The targets being global symbols of economic and political power.

The more momentum that can be gained from muslims feeling marginalized and oppressed by the west (sanctions, wars...resulting in economic desperation yet depicted as hatred...cartoons...), the more power and control al-Quaida gains to achieve their united "freedom".
Using this concept of freedom, any group would be justified in using violence to "free" itself from the influence of another group. We've gone from slave-like economic oppression to the influence of a different set of values.

Hardly a justification for a fight for "freedom".
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Using this concept of freedom, any group would be justified in using violence to "free" itself from the influence of another group. We've gone from slave-like economic oppression to the influence of a different set of values.

Hardly a justification for a fight for "freedom".
Who said it was justified?

Acknowledging and understanding the dynamic and how slave-like economic oppression and the influence of a different set of values go hand in hand to create an enemy doesn't justify violence. It just explains it.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Who said it was justified?

Acknowledging and understanding the dynamic and how slave-like economic oppression and the influence of a different set of values go hand in hand to create an enemy doesn't justify violence. It just explains it.
The "explanation" eliminates any discussion that the violence is incited by religious teaching and places it on external factors. In essence, it creates a victimhood for the terrorist. But for the economic factors, they would not engage in terrorism.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

by global standards, Iraq is not desperately poor.
If I'm not mistaken, dictators are not often good at sharing the wealth.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

The "explanation" eliminates any discussion that the violence is incited by religious teaching and places it on external factors. In essence, it creates a victimhood for the terrorist. But for the economic factors, they would not engage in terrorism.
You're getting close. What I'm saying is that ideological differences (religious teaching in this case) are the fuel that keeps the fire raging. But economic factors are the underbrush that started the fire...then it just becomes cyclical...when the negative economics factors spark, ideological differences throw the flame.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


If I'm not mistaken, dictators are not often good at sharing the wealth.


you really need to take a look at Iraqi society -- it is nowhere near Afghanistan, or half a dozen nations in Africa, or Bangladesh. Iraqis are, in general, highly educated and they lived in a socialist state before the invasion and occupation. this is not to say that life in Iraq was a barrel of monkeys, or that it had it's share of rural poor, or that Hussein funneled profits into his mansions, or that the UN sanctions didn't unduly harm the iraqi people.

but it is quite a mistake to lable the whole of Iraq as "desperately poor" and then point to that as a reason for terrorism.

in fact, it would be more accurate to simply say "desperate."

economics is one of a host of factors that inspire terrorism and more often than not, as NBC has stated, it is completely insufficient as an explanation for terrorism. economics is one of many tools wielded by (usually) charismatic religious leaders who milk history and hazy cultural memory -- it's not that you're poor, it's that you're poor because *they* (insert Jews/Israelis/Bosnians) make you poor!
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


You're getting close. What I'm saying is that ideological differences (religious teaching in this case) are the fuel that keeps the fire raging. But economic factors are the underbrush that started the fire...then it just becomes cyclical...when the negative economics factors spark, ideological differences throw the flame.


and i'd say it's precisely the opposite.

ask yourself this: why and how are the Mohammad Attas of the world overwhelmingly from the middle and upper classes, and why and how were they radicalized in Europe and not in their own countries?
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Old 03-03-2006, 01:48 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

but it is quite a mistake to lable the whole of Iraq as "desperately poor" and then point to that as a reason for terrorism.
Yup that would be a grave mistake. It would also be a mistake to interpret that as what I'm suggesting is the case. I'm simply applying a motivational principle to a situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

economics is one of a host of factors that inspire terrorism and more often than not, as NBC has stated, it is completely insufficient as an explanation for terrorism.
I haven't been saying it's the only factor in explaining terrorism. It's the root cause.
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:15 PM   #42
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
I haven't been saying it's the only factor in explaining terrorism. It's the root cause.


and that's where you are mistaken.

it is not a root cause -- as everyone has pointed out, if it were poverty/economics, then we'd see terrorists from Angola.

we don't.

ask yourself why.
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

ask yourself this: why and how are the Mohammad Attas of the world overwhelmingly from the middle and upper classes, and why and how were they radicalized in Europe and not in their own countries?
The higher up the food chain you go, the more that controlling your own destiny goes from hand-to-mouth existence to furthering the cause of what you feel is the greater good and the quality of livelihood for those you feel connected to, whether they are next door or across the world.

Doesn't change the fact that gaining more control for your cause has an economic element to it.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:13 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

and that's where you are mistaken.

it is not a root cause -- as everyone has pointed out, if it were poverty/economics, then we'd see terrorists from Angola.

we don't.

ask yourself why.
Because their civil war ended only a few years ago...as most of Africa is still emerging from inner conflicts (based on the same principles I've tabled). Terrorism exists over there, but it's inwardly forcused (for now) and we are rarely exposed to it.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:26 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it is not a root cause -- as everyone has pointed out, if it were poverty/economics, then we'd see terrorists from Angola.
Or from Appalachia. Or from the Bayou. Etc.
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