could fundamental extremism be linked to poverty? :gasp: - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 03-01-2006, 07:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
does poverty lead to terrorism?
Oppression leads to terrorism. Poverty is one type of oppression.

There is no excuse for terrorism.

Is there an excuse for oppression?
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:39 PM   #17
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Yes, stability
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:48 PM   #18
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Terrorism is a pretty good indicator of instability. Would that call for additional oppression to restore stability?
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yes, stability
Interesting. Does that mean you prefer Saddam´s oppression of Iraq (or generally a dictator´s oppression of a country) to instability like 20 car bombs per day?
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:55 AM   #20
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Which causes more death and suffering?

Iraq is an example where the suffering of deposing the regime was significantly less than that caused by keeping it in place.

North Korea however is an example where the regime runs a complete slave state, kills millions but there is no way to remove the regime that would not kill so many more.
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Old 03-02-2006, 06:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
So, do you stop those who fund insurgency/terrorist groups, or outbid them?
What's that Bible verse in Micah that links peace with a lack of poverty? Oh yeah...

Micah 4:2-4
2 Many nations will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

4 Every man will sit under his own vine
and under his own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the LORD Almighty has spoken.

Therefore, the answer isn't "let's outbid Osama," but rather, "let's erradicate poverty in the name of justice and peace."
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Old 03-02-2006, 06:10 AM   #22
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Amen.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Which causes more death and suffering?

Iraq is an example where the suffering of deposing the regime was significantly less than that caused by keeping it in place.

i do think this is the central question, however, in light of recent events and the growing sectarian violence, it seems as if this is a prelude to a possible civil war that would cause greater death and destruction than either Saddam's rule or the current occupation.

what would happen if we have an Iraqi civil war, which leads to a polarization in the middle east amongst Sunnis and Shiites, which then leads to broader middle eastern war?
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Which causes more death and suffering?
Iraq and North Korea are interesting case studies to pit terrorism vs oppression in asking that question since the outcome is that oppression easily causes more death and suffering.

Take that to the global scale. If oppression causes the most death and suffering, where is it coming from?

Oppressive foreign trade policies.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
What's the difference?

Especially when funding one anti-terrorist group creates a new, more powerful one.
The blurring of the issues of terrorism and poverty isn't solving either problem.

First, it is clear that there is no causal relationship between poverty and terrorism.

Second, it is fair to deny the "link" between the two, and still be in favor of actions to eliminate poverty.

Accepting and engaging in terrorism is a moral failure. To the extent you grant absolution because of economic situation, you've opened the door to anyone engaging in wrong behavior due to such factors. No one is in a position to accept one person’s wrong behavior due to economic circumstances, but punish another’s wrong behavior due to economic circumstances.
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

The blurring of the issues of terrorism and poverty isn't solving either problem.
That's very true. What is the biggest blurring factor to sidestepping the link though? I'd say with strong conviction that it's cultural values and ideologies that play out through political and economic structure.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

First, it is clear that there is no causal relationship between poverty and terrorism.
Oppression leads to terrorism. (Extreme) poverty is an outcome of economic oppression. What's not clear about that?

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Second, it is fair to deny the "link" between the two, and still be in favor of actions to eliminate poverty.
So it's better to keep putting oil into your car because you want to deny that there's a leak? You can deny the leak but the car will still be spewing oil wherever it goes.

Are you just addicted to oil?


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Accepting and engaging in terrorism is a moral failure. To the extent you grant absolution because of economic situation, you've opened the door to anyone engaging in wrong behavior due to such factors. No one is in a position to accept one person’s wrong behavior due to economic circumstances, but punish another’s wrong behavior due to economic circumstances.
Insert oppression in place of terrorism and the statement still rings true.
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:35 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Oppression leads to terrorism.
I am not sure there is a casual relationship here either. Oppression may lead to a struggle for freedom, but that is not what we are dealing with here.



Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
So it's better to keep putting oil into your car because you want to deny that there's a leak? You can deny the leak but the car will still be spewing oil wherever it goes.

Are you just addicted to oil?
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

To often, generalizations are made, not based on a position taken by someone, but if they question another position.
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

I am not sure there is a casual relationship here either. Oppression may lead to a struggle for freedom, but that is not what we are dealing with here.
Ok, we're not dealing with freedom here? wtf

Let's be more concrete. Rather then me assuming what we are dealing with since these topics often go back and forth between the big picture and specific situations, give me the specific example of where the link is missing and I will demonstate the connections.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

To often, generalizations are made, not based on a position taken by someone, but if they question another position.
It was just a metaphor.

Back to specifics.

Oppressive foreign trade policies.
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Old 03-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #29
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
Ok, we're not dealing with freedom here? wtf
What freedom was sought when the planes hit the World Trade Center?

Please show me where perpetrators of terrorism are seeking freedom.
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Old 03-02-2006, 01:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What freedom was sought when the planes hit the World Trade Center?

Please show me where perpetrators of terrorism are seeking freedom.




one of those rare occasions when i agree with NBC!



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